How DARE they  

rm_bucfannn 62M/61F
1805 posts
6/8/2006 7:22 am

Last Read:
6/23/2006 4:26 am

How DARE they

I was reading a story in People Magazine about a couple in Appleton, WI, who tried for years to have a baby. Infertility is a horrible thing. I know. I've been there.

This couple tried EVERYTHING conventionally to conceive. She was a teacher in a Catholic school, and they were quite devout. She was a lifelong Catholic, and attended parochial school.

However, the pull of parenthood lured them to another form of treatment. IVF (in-vitro fertilization), which, in essence combines the eggs of the mother and the sperm of the father in a test tube, (hence the term "test tube baby), where fertilization takes place. Then, the embryos are transferred to the woman's womb.

Conventional? NO. But, commonplace? YEP.

Since 1978, when the first test tube baby was conceived, IVF has seen huge success rates.

This couple went forward with the IVF treatment, and they were successful. Early last year, they welcomed twin daughters.

Then, she lost her job.

The Vatican is adamant about conception. Births are to be the result of "natural" conjugal relations, not "made" in a test tube.

So, according to the Church, this couple, so desperate to have a child, went against the doctrines. Since she was no longer a "role model", as a Catholic schoolteacher, she was fired.

She is suing. Probably an uphill battle, for sure, but, she is standing up for what she believes in.

Her two daughters were baptised in a Lutheran Church, (and, I'm sure, in WI, it's a Missouri Synod church), where the couple now worship. She is hoping that one day she can return to teaching - in a public school. But, for now, she is concentrating on the upcoming suit.

It's 2006. The days of a church dictating how a person lives their life should be over. The Catholic Church is archaic at best, and I know Catholics all over the world were hoping for a change when the present Pope took control. But, it didn't happen. They are still in the middle ages on most issues.

So, what do you think? Is the Church right? And the couple wrong?


(and, I'm not Catholic, although my father's family is. I even have an aunt that is a nun. I was born and raised Lutheran, and my father converted...)


TnWitchyWoman 57F
6852 posts
6/8/2006 8:00 am

*shrugs* I think if you want to say you belong to a certain religious organization then you should believe as that organization does. If you don't, then maybe it's your religion you need to change, not change the religion that's been that way longer than you've been breathing because you're asking people who do follow that thought to change for your views.

Of course you have to take this as my coming from a anti-religious stance to begin with as I define myself as "spiritual" and am not Christian but you wanted an opinion and I've usually got one. LOL


rm_bucfannn replies on 6/8/2006 8:14 am:
And, I respect your opinion.

Thanks for stopping by!

Xeryien 53M
1448 posts
6/8/2006 8:03 am

Umm, egg and sperm from the Mom and Dad fertilized each other....

So it happened outside the Mom's body. Big deal.

Church - wrong.

Please don't get me started!


rm_bucfannn replies on 6/8/2006 8:15 am:
YEP YEP YEP!

My sentiments, exactly.

MOfunNOWWOW 56F

6/8/2006 8:35 am

I think the Church is wrong. However I know the Church is her employer and since there is a separation of Church and State and she was employed and more than liekely by contract because of 1. being a qualified teacher and 2. a practicing Catholic If it is in her contract she probably is screwed. It was her choice to be Catholic and work for someone she allows to dictate her life style as well as her choice to step outside the boundaries they have defined for her but knowing she can receive their consequences as well. Don't agree with the Church but that is how I see the situation going down SUXXXXX Mo does not believe in man, woman, or any organized church telling her nothing. Great post sorry for the long comment!


MOMO
just a squirrel trying to get a nut


rm_bucfannn replies on 6/8/2006 8:44 am:
Yep, I agree, the Church is wrong. I'm not saying she will win. Probably won't, especially if it's in her contract to comply with the doctrine of the Church. It's an uphill battle, for sure, but, I do give her credit in her fight against the Vatican. Could set a precedence, though.

Thank you for stopping by

redmustang91 58M  
8917 posts
6/8/2006 9:37 am

Sad story. Catholic doctrine does not make sense to me in many areas about human sexuality: contraception, abortion, infertility, premarital sex, masturbation, etc. A Catholic teacher is a role model and the Catholic church may be within its rights to insist those teaching in its schools follow its doctrines. Generally the courts do not want to get involved in disputes over church doctrine and how it is presented in church schools or churches. Many American Catholics do not practice as the Catholic church preaches, but a teacher in a Catholic schooll may be in a different situation. Perhaps she should teach in the Lutheran or Episcopal school!


rm_bucfannn replies on 6/9/2006 4:59 am:
She said she would like to teach in a public school.

Eventually, it will happen. The changing of the Church, I mean. But, they will need a "new" pope. Not just "new new", but, one with modern ideas. And, once that's under 100 years old...

rm_gerson42 53M
2419 posts
6/8/2006 12:32 pm

She definately has a cause to fight for. Teachers and employees have rights, no matter what doctrine they are under. Part of seperation from church and state as MOfun says. If the church accepts even one penny of federal or state money, the case has even further merit.
Sorry to hear this story.
ger


gent4u813 62M

6/8/2006 12:38 pm

The Church is wrong. I am a Catholic by upbringing but became disillusioned when they took what I beleive are archaic stances on certain issues. But I do not run the Church... and it is not a democracy, so there is no point in my trying to change it. Now I just have my own spiritual beliefs and try to stay away from being judgemental.

As far as firing the person for religious reasons... I am not sure that it is not a violation of her constitutional rights, unless as part of her employment agreement there was something binding. Any constitutional lawyers out there?


peaches19555 62M

6/8/2006 2:37 pm

So often we want to change boats in midstream. I do not agree with many of the tenants of the Catholic Church but at the same time I do not agree with the argument that the Catholic or any other church's jurisdiction trespasses in our personal lives. It is their calling to infiltrate us head to toe. I have great empathy for this family but can respect the church's standing beside its principal. Why the Catholic Church seems so absorbed in these details of religion is confounding. Is not the devil in the details?


seek_u_topia 52M

6/8/2006 2:56 pm

This is just classic. The catholic church is governed by so many old fashioned and outdated individuals it never surprises me any more.

It may be 2006, but the catholic church it's still the middle ages. anything scientific is bad in their view. Believe me, I was raised catholic, and have many relatives in the clergy in the catholic church.

In the end, the church teachings have changed so little over the centuries, it's a wonder it's still around.

Sad story, but unfortunately not surprising. In any event, I tend to believe, as marx did, that "religion is the opiate of the masses"


brute472 75M
3480 posts
6/8/2006 11:27 pm

Is the Church right? And the couple wrong?
Answers in order.Hell no! Heavens yes.


1Sir_Lancelot 61M

6/9/2006 12:54 am

The Church is wrong!!! PERIOD....the end. You don't even want to get me started on that subject. This is the same church that in the early 1800's told the priests not to encourage it's parishioners to read the bible but to preach to them the doctrine of the church. They were afraid that if the people actually read the bible they would leave the church because of ALL the things they do wrong.

I know I'm going to catch hell for this but who cares.


rm_bucfannn 62M/61F
2110 posts
6/9/2006 5:01 am

    Quoting rm_gerson42:
    She definately has a cause to fight for. Teachers and employees have rights, no matter what doctrine they are under. Part of seperation from church and state as MOfun says. If the church accepts even one penny of federal or state money, the case has even further merit.
    Sorry to hear this story.
    ger
Yes, Ger. She has something to fight for, but, the government will not want to "butt" into Church doings.

It is sad, indeed...


rm_bucfannn 62M/61F
2110 posts
6/9/2006 5:03 am

    Quoting gent4u813:
    The Church is wrong. I am a Catholic by upbringing but became disillusioned when they took what I beleive are archaic stances on certain issues. But I do not run the Church... and it is not a democracy, so there is no point in my trying to change it. Now I just have my own spiritual beliefs and try to stay away from being judgemental.

    As far as firing the person for religious reasons... I am not sure that it is not a violation of her constitutional rights, unless as part of her employment agreement there was something binding. Any constitutional lawyers out there?
You are right. It's not a democracy. But, don't you think that if more and more people stood up against their ways of thinking, things would change? Maybe?

Or, am I delusional?


rm_jami95 67M
69 posts
6/9/2006 7:35 am

I am voting for delusional but that's a tad to harsh. People in power, especially those that have no fear of losing it will rarely, if ever, give it up. This is particularly true when they know (think) that what they believe is the absolute truth and has been for thousands of years.


mygmyg 60M

6/9/2006 10:53 am

Cat, just have to say, as a Catholic, what is happening to this couple is wrong!

The only way the Catholic Church will ever change, is for The Catholics to not only Protest, but to withhold their weekly donations enmasse!! this is really the only pressure that can be applied to the church. give their donations directly to the needy, bypass the middleman.

Separation of church and state in our country, the way politicians have been playing the "religion card" under the guise of "family values", church and state are somewhat joined at the hip!! We are constantly thumped and swatted over the head with the "Religious Stick".
Creationism is know taught in SCIENCE classes by mandate of local government??? What separation???? Basically, these schools are now "Parochial" Schools!!

I think the couple has one route to go in their defense, in the court case!
SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT OF CHURCH DOCTRINE!! Their lawyers need to introduce the instances of molestation by priests, the covering up, and "Movem' til they get caught again" policy!! of the church.
Just the threat of getting this introduced somehow in the trial will give the church pause!!


rm_flarob1000 77M
1 post
6/23/2006 12:27 am

The church of Rome has many problems. Thats why their ranks are shrinking, tho not to hear them talk about it.
The very best way to bring about change is to take themselves (and their money) directly to another church community, Lutheran, Episcopal etc. money Talks.


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