WHICH IS WORSE? You decide. . .  

IamWetFire 53F
739 posts
8/24/2006 8:53 pm

Last Read:
9/20/2006 2:53 pm

WHICH IS WORSE? You decide. . .

You tell me Faithful Reader. . .
Which is worse before you get betrayed:

Men who come right out and treat you like a hole?


Men who want to play head games and start creating some fantasy future with you as its star?

Now I remember why I stopped dating for over 2.5 years!

rm_prank123 34M
13 posts
8/24/2006 9:17 pm

just depends what kind of person you are and if you like playing games.

TheOracle2006 106F

8/25/2006 12:33 am


Oh my Goddess, I can't even imagine what happened in the last 24 hrs. I hope it wasn't anything like my my experience with "HE SAID... SHE SAID... REALITY vs FANCY"
[post 471215] He called himself One Gentle for you... sorry to say you can never trust an electronic impulse. I have turned off my profile after him... hopefully he will forget about me and leave me alone.

I hope I am just misreading the message...

The Oracle

Hi again

kyplowboy22 62M

8/25/2006 7:19 am

Now that's a first, for me anyway, MoMan. A 'form poem' to the ladies. lol Perhaps this is the kind of deception you speak of Wet? I have seen this same poem on the blogs of others, yet he would lead you to believe it was written especially for you. Oh what a tangled web we weave...


IamWetFire 53F

8/25/2006 9:47 am

To respond to you, Prank: Personally, I'm straight up. What you see is what you get. I HATE games and will not play along. I am the soul of compassion and love for my friends, and an ice cold cunt to anyone who crosses the line.

Hello beloved Oracle and KPB.

Let's just say it went from us spending the weekend together to see if we'd be compatible enough to start living together in a couple weeks, to him not calling, emailing or IMing. . .all in under 12 hours. I went to bed on Wednesday after being "honey, baby, kitten, my love" and all that, to getting the "I won't be coming because" about 2 hours before I was to leave the house to take the ferry off island to meet him.


I can get that bullshit right here in this Navy town. I don't need to go anywhere else for it.

He didn't call last night when we was supposed to. He did not call this morning. When I called him last night--after noticing that he'd been here on the site--he sounded completely different. A totally different person. It was as if he was talking to a business associate instead of the woman he thought he was falling in love with. And I heard kids in the background.

Why do I get the feeling I've uncovered one of Toad of Darkness' "Brothers of Betrayal?" If that is so, let's hope his wife or SO finds out and teaches him the lesson he obviously needs to learn!

My mistake was having hope. Believing. Trusting. Caring. I kept telling him, "This is NOT me." I don't care because I've been taught by bastards not to.

I prayed for God to give me a sign if this was "real." I guess I got my sign, huh. . .

Oh, sweet KPB, I deleted that stupid stolen poem and banned said asshole for his trouble. Some men simply don't get it.

Darling Oracle, I got your email. Thank you so very much, Wise One!

TheOracle2006 106F

8/25/2006 4:13 pm

And this is for you... IamWetFire... your Oracle reading from your keywords...

Never to part through smiles or tears, The Pedantic Bohemian is truly blessed by the Goddess Venus ... Protect her from evil and direct her to the true hearts worthy around the world ... Protect her from cheating hearts seeking stars for their erection's desires .... Direct her seeking of fantasy encounters with stimulating writers with witty responses ... with cunning and skillful tongue . Men seeking first time encounters must be astute in the education of love , willing to travel ... this lady is worthy of disciplined encounters full wine and song...

L'Oracle de L'Amour

Hi again

IamWetFire 53F

8/25/2006 4:29 pm

This is so very beautiful Beloved Oracle! Thank you for it, from the bottom of my heart! Bless you!

IamWetFire 53F

8/26/2006 1:05 am

Just a footnote on this "live and learn" lesson.

Sailor Man sent a brief IM, "I wish you every happiness."

That meant a lot. Truly. I wish the same for him. He's got a very, very long and painful road ahead of him. He needs to heal his own damage or he will never find happiness. No woman will be able to meet his ridiculously cruel and unforgiving standards. He will continue to judge all women by the wife he says so deeply disappointed him and he will not be second guessed, questioned or doubted at all. No woman will endure such restrictions.

When even tearful, heartfelt apologies are met with frigid, ugly words and blame-shifting, it's time to simply move on and leave that person to their own devices. It's a shame, really.

Yes. Live and learn. And in every tear there is a lesson.

VCF1962 106F

8/26/2006 1:25 am

IAWF - seems to me that head games is all some want to play.

This is my most recent experience - not the same guy is it ?!!!

[post 481628]

Hope you and M go places - it sounds like a promising start.

Mistress Innuendo
Taking what you say and turning it into something naughty !!

IamWetFire 53F

8/26/2006 1:54 pm

Thanks for sharing that post, dear VCF! And your poem, [post 475206], is beautiful, but very sad in its truth.

One quote that comes to mind when I think of this sort of psychological manipulation is this:

"'Tis not a year or two shows us a man:
They are all but stomachs, and we all but food;
To eat us hungerly, and when they are full,
They belch us."

-- Othello, Act III. Scene IV, William Shakespeare

And while the actions may be similar, we're dealing with two different men in this case. jzracer62 is the Sailor Man who caused such a tidal wave over the last week or so. And as I gain more perspective and distance myself from my own pain, I'm coming to realize that the mind games weren't done out of some sick need to play with people, but because he is simply so bitter over his past experiences that he can't even see himself or his desires clearly.

If his own admissions to me are true, he's been divorced LESS THAN 2 MONTHS and just been ashore from his latest deployment 3 weeks. Without being too judgmental, I'd say this website is the last place on earth he should be. Or any other "dating" sort of site for that matter. I tried to tell him this, but my advice was drowned out by the rushing white waters of his growing passion for me. Just from the over-the-top nature of his honeyed promises to me, I know he's seeking to replace what he lost with the end of his 21-year marriage. And while I tried to urge him to hold himself gently and take time to regain his equilibrium after such a long-term relationship. . .again, my hard-won wisdom fell upon inarable ground.

Just like my ex-husband, he's not yet learned to enjoy solitude and the sound of his own thoughts in the accompanying silence.

One of my dearest friends in this world--more sister than just friend--was privy to the entire ordeal from start to finish. Here's what she wrote to me last night:

"One more thought about B****, I still wanted to share with you, about him blaming you for doubting him: an honest person never would mind someone asking an open question when in doubt. Mutual trust should be based on facts and experiences - never on pre-suppositions. (I am not sure whether I use the right word here - I hope you know what I mean). Certainly in a period of getting to know one another - but in fact always - the willingness to be accountable to one another is the base for a healthy and trusting relationship. Even, it is a sign of a healthy relationship that, when questions arise, they should be asked and openly talked about! That's what you did...

It is the most beautiful gift that people can give to one another: to ask the questions that arise, and to openly and wholeheartedly answer them, to help one another to build up a mutual trust, based on facts and experiences... the only confidence that can last!

No, whatever happened, it surely wasn't your fault!"

Profound as always, my dear sister-friend. Of course she's right.

It's taken me more than 3 years to get what perspective I have on the betrayal that ended my 15 year marriage. And if there is ONE piece of advice I received early in that process that I could pass on to anyone recently divorced, it is this:


If not, you have nothing to bring to the situation beyond your own pain and damage. And not only will you end up dissatisfied by your experiences, you'll HURT all those who you draw into your circle of suffering whether you mean to or not.

bipolybabe 56F

8/26/2006 5:32 pm

Hey, Baby!

Join the crowd. I'm fuckin' pissed, too, so I'm sending bloggers your way.



Check out my blog Bi-Poly-Babe for more sensual, sexual pleasure!

IamWetFire 53F

8/26/2006 5:47 pm

Oh, sweetie I know you've had more than your fair share of jackasses lately. You're too wise, feisty and wonderful to have to put up with doggy sons of bitches.

Thanks in no small part to the nice date with M last night, my anger has slipped away. Now I'm sad for what Sailor Man is putting himself through. As I told him in my last email to him, he has so much goodness and kindness inside him. If he can heal himself and stop hating the world at large and any woman who expresses even a minuscule doubt about his actions in particular, he will make some lucky woman very happy. Until then, he's just too toxic to be with.

Anyway. . .enough about science project men!

How goes it with Chocolate Mountain Man? Any decision yet? And by the way. . .that new picture of you is stunning! You're so very pretty! And that smile could make a person go blind.

redmustang91 58M  
8924 posts
8/27/2006 5:29 am

Hard to wait a year without any human contact... Pain is part of the human condition.

IamWetFire 53F

8/27/2006 9:31 am

Your argument is a bit circular and flawed isn't it? Waiting could be interpreted as "pain" as well. And pain being part of the human condition that must be endured. . .

There are a million and one forms of human contact that do not involve drawing another person into your own damage and drama. And the point of the learning process in living your life is to NOT spread your pain around to others. Shrugging it off by saying, in effect, "Life is pain, get used to it," is callous and selfish. It smacks of that 70s bumper sticker sentiment, "Do unto others, then split."

Part of growing as a person is learning to be kind and to think before acting. It's what separates us from the animals. . .who, at times, do seem kinder than we.

I dated and became seriously involved too soon after my own divorce. The person I was with was in the same situation as myself and all the love in the world could not have saved our relationship. I went on to date after that, but there came a time when I realized I was too hurt and angry about my situation to continue with any enjoyment or fairness to myself and the men I met. So, I STOPPED. Two and a half years actually.

2.5 years.

I worked on myself and learned from the experience. I don't want to hurt anyone else and I do not want to be hurt again.

And this is why my profile states that I do not want to be involved with men who are recently divorced or still in the process. I know from experience what that is and that it can take a great deal of introspection to begin to heal. Even if the end of a marriage is amicable, it marks one of the greatest psychological challenges we as humans face. Anyone who assumes they've come away from that sort of upheaval is self-deluded. It may only be a small piece of carry-on luggage, but the baggage IS there.

spacecadet561 61M

8/27/2006 10:35 am

Which is worse before you get betrayed:
Men who come right out and treat you like a hole? Why did you get involved with him in the first place?
Men who want to play head games and start creating some fantasy future with you as its star? If this isn't what you want, you should leave as soon as it starts.

I've got my own brand C: Someone who seem like a good match and later turns out to be quite different, and quite aggravating.

(followed the link from bipolybabe's blog)


IamWetFire 53F

8/27/2006 1:30 pm

SpaceCadet! How wonderful to have you drop into the Grotto. I see your wise posts on many of my favorite blogs. You always know just what to say, and add a sweet twist of humor so often as well!

Answer to the first question. . .traitor vagina/hormones. Sometimes we think with the organ between the legs instead of the one between the ears. Info assimilated and lesson learned. I don't handle meaningless sex well at all, so now I hold myself more gently and demand a higher standard or do without.

Answer two is that Sailor Man was saying EXACTLY what I wanted to hear. Monogamy. Love. Loyalty. Rejoining the Navy world that I have so grieved for since my divorce from Toad He instinctively picked up on my passion for the Navy (Daughter of Navy, Navy myself briefly, married to Navy, most friends Navy, date Navy men almost exclusively, etc.) and said the things I have so desperately wanted to hear again. Like, "I want you on that pier waiting when my boat comes back in." or, "Before the next cruise, I'm going to take you aboard to the *****, show you around. . .then we can go into the ***** and make love there."

That was custom-made for me. Like crack for a dope head. My own personal sensual morphine. And I bought it.

The sad fact is, Sailor Man likely meant all these things. He needs to have those things fulfilled as badly as I do, BUT being so fresh from the ax that split him from his 21 years as a married man. . .he's far too damaged and skittish for anything serious. He wants it. Hell, he CRAVES it. But, he's not ready for it. And God knows I wanted to give it to him. Being a Navy wife was more than a third of my life and something I was extremely good at and loved. I was proud to be one of those who "stands and waits." While it might not have ended in marriage, I would've still be a loyal lover and friend with complete knowledge of what was expected and the demands that are unique to being with an active duty military person. It's not for everyone and the divorce rate in the services is very high as a result. That's the "adventure" they don't tell you about in the recruiting ads!

The take away message I've gained from my brief entanglement with Sailor Man is that he meant well, but he is far too judgmental, volatile and hypersensitive to be involved in any sort of romance or love affair. I knew this when I took him on and now must bear some of the blame because I knew better. I told him the very first time we chatted about my stance on divorced men. But I let him fool me into believing he was over it. I KNEW better, but there again. . .I was letting my logic be tempered by my own craving to "belong" again. . .to another person, the Navy community, the life I left behind. My mistake. And his.

However, as I sat in church this morning considering all these events and my thoughts about them, it hit me. Sailor Man did give me one amazing gift. He proved to me that I am capable of CARING again. Opening myself emotionally, despite the possibility of being betrayed and having my heart and sensibilities trampled again. I realized the deeper he and I went into the dance, I actually developed feelings for him. Then it hit me later that I care for two other gentlemen with whom I've become friends--not lovers, but friends. They mean something to me and I cherish my friendship with them.

That's a priceless gift. I only wish I could've given Sailor Man something just as precious in return. I tried extending the olive branch, but was rebuked like the whore of Babylon. He was cold and hateful--which reminded me far too much of the cruelty of Toad--and impervious to all apologies and reason. I had every reason to doubt strange actions from a man I did not know, but his reaction was unstable and out of proportion to my questioning him.

Later, he wished me happiness and I returned that wish wholeheartedly. But there is the end of it.

And as to your third, personal brand C, is what I've discovered far too many times to be true. I subscribe to the teachings of our very own Oracle, who offers women a secret to help us combat that. And if that certain thing is too much to ask. . .well, it proves a good way to pluck the weeds from the flowers.

Again, I'm so glad you dropped by. Always good to see your smiling face!


Scott_in_Tulsa 46M
1328 posts
8/27/2006 7:38 pm

Whew! My eyes are watering from all that reading...

I'm pretending i didn't hear the question because the whole premise is flawed. The premise being that all men are either disrespectful , or full of shit. Men are just as bad as women when it comes to playing games. It's human nature. You just have to live with it.

My father was fond of saying "experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." It seems you got a whole lot of experience. Being the intelligent woman you are, you can learn from this. But since you are a woman,I advise you against over-reacting to it.

The next time you find a guy who says all the right things, give him a kiss and say "aww that's so sweet". But keep your heart guarded. Pushing all the right buttons earns him another date. That's all. Time will tell on the fakes.

A woman i dated used to use this as her litmus test "i tell guys i don't want anything serious, those that agree with me are soon on to the next woman, the ones who want more show it, either way i'm getting my needs fufilled without unduly risking my heart"

Qapla' !


"We are all worms, but i like to think of myself as a glow-worm" - Winston Churchill

IamWetFire 53F

8/27/2006 7:59 pm

Brilliant, Scott. And you're right, as always. Oh, I really like the litmus test, too.

As to the validity of the question, for me the latter is the worse of the two when being betrayed by ignorant bastards. The question posed does not, obviously, apply to real men, only mind fuckers .

Regarding the former, being treated like a hole is as common as water. Been there, been patronized, depersonalized, objectified and anonymized by that. I simply used it as a point of comparison to the "I'll build your dream world for you and set you up on a pedestal in my ivory tower" guys.

Normally, as you observed, I'm smarter than to fall for this. . .but, well. . .you know me. . .unquenchable passion for a man in uniform. And honestly, I think the idea of getting jiggy on a submarine sent my yoni for a loop around the sun!

And it's all a moot point now. I learned a valuable lesson and feel very free now because of it.

Speaking of Klingon. . .I've missed you! Hope you're okay.

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