abortion  

rm_shade2x 41M
25 posts
5/27/2006 5:09 pm

Last Read:
6/4/2006 1:45 am

abortion

Just curious to see what people think on this here...

Do you think women should be allowed to have abortions? Personally, although I think anyone would agree that it would be best if it could be prevented before it came to the possibility of abortion (through contraception, say), I think they should be allowed to in all circumstances; I think there are plenty of people on this earth and we're not in dire need of having every possible baby at the moment.. more like we need to have less, especially in developing countries where people starve for lack of resources.
No- even masturbation is murder!
No- not even contraception
No- but contraception is ok
Only in cases of or if the fetus is deformed
Yes- a woman shouldn't be forced to have a baby if she doesn't want one at the time
Other- please specify in commentaries


sexymamma662003 31F

5/27/2006 6:10 pm

ok here is my opinion on this topic
i think that there should only be 2 cases in which a pregnancy should be aborted
1.if carrying the baby cold kill the mother
2. if the baby was going to be born with a disease that would leave him or her in the worst pain and there was no cure or way to help the baby

in all other case i believe that just cause you got pregnant cause you didn't use a condom or birth control is no reason to kill and innocent child who DID NOT choose to be born to you. there are millions of people in the world who would give anything to have a child of there own and are unable to. you could have the child instead of aborting it and give a family who wants a child one instead of destroying a life that you created. it angers me that so many people have unprotected sex and have multiple abortions every year because they are to lazy to do birth control

~sexy~


HeartlessBitch69 46F

5/27/2006 6:30 pm

How about we go ahead and make it leagal to kill the people making this planet fucked up to live on! If ya think it is too over populated and think it is ok to kill babies, why don't we weed out the child molesters and murders, instead of filling up our prisons and using up our tax payers money!
And these women who don't want to have the babies they have become pregnant with should have thought about that before they spread their legs!
And how about the millions of couples who cannot have children who are looking to adopt?


rm_shade2x 41M
9 posts
5/28/2006 11:02 am

    Quoting sexymamma662003:
    ok here is my opinion on this topic
    i think that there should only be 2 cases in which a pregnancy should be aborted
    1.if carrying the baby cold kill the mother
    2. if the baby was going to be born with a disease that would leave him or her in the worst pain and there was no cure or way to help the baby

    in all other case i believe that just cause you got pregnant cause you didn't use a condom or birth control is no reason to kill and innocent child who DID NOT choose to be born to you. there are millions of people in the world who would give anything to have a child of there own and are unable to. you could have the child instead of aborting it and give a family who wants a child one instead of destroying a life that you created. it angers me that so many people have unprotected sex and have multiple abortions every year because they are to lazy to do birth control
One thing I'm a bit curious about is that you didn't mention ; do you think that someone who's should be forced to have a baby?

I guess I just think that a woman shouldn't be forced to incubate a fetus if she doesn't want to. I also diferentiate between a fetus (as in: requiring the mother to be an incubator to be alive) and a baby or child who at that point is in no need of the mother, so if she doesn't want him or her at -that- point, she can simply give him/her up for adoption. As to the bit about millions of people in the world who you say want to adopt, I'm just curious if you have a link with evidence of this? I seem to be aware that many children -in the u.s.- end up in foster care, so I'm somewhat skeptical of your figure.

As to the issue of many people having multiple abortions every year, how many is many? 1 per 100,000 women or something? Finally, I don't think most people get abortions because they were too lazy to use birth control; there is a lot of opposition to abortion worldwide I believe and I don't think going through that is anyone's idea of a picnic. I did a little research and came up with this page as to why most women get unwanted pregnancies:
http://AdultFriendFinder.com

As to the U.S. it may be some of the above... I found another page
(http://AdultFriendFinder.com) but it didn't really go too much into why they're getting unwanted pregnancies, other then that condom use isn't talked about.


sexymamma662003 31F

5/28/2006 11:31 am

i did not mention for the reason that there are many women on this site some my friends who have been and i do not want to offend them with my views. and because my views on are kinda split.

the children that are in foster homes are older children most couples who want to adopt want a baby not a child. (which to me is unfair)

take a look at all the adoption agencies you think that all those people are there looking for babies are there cause they can have there own no they cant so they have to go there.

you will get different figures on how many abortions are performed every year because some do it anonymously and so they figures do not show there and some are done illegally so it wont show there.

just because the law says that a fetus has to be that after 12 weeks it can not be aborted doesn't mean anything. to me it is a baby as soon as the test turns positive. i have 2 children and since you are a man you will never understand what it feels like to feel a baby moving and growing in side of you. i got pregnant with my daughter at 17 even though i was not ready for a child i couldn't not bare to get an abortion.

and none of the link you posted came up you have to be sneaky when posting because AdultFriendFinder edits it to say there own if you send a link do this say instead of the @ you have to use AT and instead of . you use DOT

~sexy~


rm_shade2x 41M
9 posts
5/28/2006 4:01 pm

    Quoting sexymamma662003:
    i did not mention for the reason that there are many women on this site some my friends who have been and i do not want to offend them with my views. and because my views on are kinda split.

    the children that are in foster homes are older children most couples who want to adopt want a baby not a child. (which to me is unfair)

    take a look at all the adoption agencies you think that all those people are there looking for babies are there cause they can have there own no they cant so they have to go there.

    you will get different figures on how many abortions are performed every year because some do it anonymously and so they figures do not show there and some are done illegally so it wont show there.

    just because the law says that a fetus has to be that after 12 weeks it can not be aborted doesn't mean anything. to me it is a baby as soon as the test turns positive. i have 2 children and since you are a man you will never understand what it feels like to feel a baby moving and growing in side of you. i got pregnant with my daughter at 17 even though i was not ready for a child i couldn't not bare to get an abortion.

    and none of the link you posted came up you have to be sneaky when posting because AdultFriendFinder edits it to say there own if you send a link do this say instead of the @ you have to use AT and instead of . you use DOT
Concerning the issue of and not wanting to offend your friends, ok.. but personally, I think that if the mother doesn't want to carry the fetus to term, who are we to judge? If they want to, on the other hand, fine.

About most parents wanting babies, not children, I can kind of sympathize with the parents somewhat. There is evidence, as I've already pointed out, that foster children are frequently damaged goods. To quote casanet (www(dot)casanet.org/library/foster-care/why.htm):
"(foster care children are) three to six times more likely than children not in care to have emotional, behavioral and developmental problems including conduct disorders, depression, difficulties in school, and impaired social relationships."

But I'm with you in the idea that more people should try to help these poor kids out by adopting them.

As to people wanting to adopt babies and not finding any, I think the solution there is to 'bite the bullet' so to speak and adopt a child in foster care; more babies will only make it harder for all those children in foster care to find adoptive parents.

As to how many abortions are done every year, I saw a figure somewhere that in terms of legal abortions, it's been over a 1,300,000 a year for some time now. It's actually declined a bit since 1990 though when I believe it was at around 1,600,000. I definitely think the number is too high, but I think the solution is more education and access to contraception, not tighter controls on abortion.

As to the issue of when a fetus should be allowed to be aborted, I would say until the very end as even then they are not fully cognizant (www(dot)brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html).

It is true that I am a man and thus will never have a baby inside me. But I'm not advocating for -men- to have the choice on whether to abort or not, which in a way is what is happening more and more with men passing laws against -women- being allowed to have abortions.

For the record, I am pretty close to a woman who has had 2 abortions; and by the way, she -did- use protection; her boyfriend, however, was pretty sneaky and broke the condoms, not once, but twice, because he wanted to have a baby with her to ensure that she would stay with him; she only found out about his treachery after they had finished their relationship and he told her. She is thankful that she was able to have the abortions and not become bogged down with having to care for children at a time in her life when it was difficult enough to simply care for herself.

As to you not baring to get an abortion, fine. Isn't it nice to have the power to make your own choice about whether to have an abortion or not, instead of someone else making it for you?

And thanks about the advice on how to post links, I've made sure to put (dot) after my wwws .


rm_shade2x 41M
9 posts
5/28/2006 4:09 pm

    Quoting HeartlessBitch69:
    How about we go ahead and make it leagal to kill the people making this planet fucked up to live on! If ya think it is too over populated and think it is ok to kill babies, why don't we weed out the child molesters and murders, instead of filling up our prisons and using up our tax payers money!
    And these women who don't want to have the babies they have become pregnant with should have thought about that before they spread their legs!
    And how about the millions of couples who cannot have children who are looking to adopt?
First, I'd like to say that I believe that the mother shouldn’t be forced to incubate a being that is not even fully cognizant; when a baby is born, the mother no longer has to care for it, but before it's another story.

Secondly, regarding your statement regarding the killing of prisoners:
You may know this, but in case you didn't, I'd like to point out that most people in U.S. prisons aren't murderers or child molesters; in 1992, state courts convicted 894,000 persons. Of those, only 1% were murderers and 2% were . Child molesters? Apparently below 1%, because they didn’t even have their own category. (www(dot)ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/njrp92i.pdf)

Another thing that surprised me is that there are more people in jail that are unconvicted than are convicted; in 1998, there were 331,800 unconvicted people in adult jails vs. 252,600 convicted (www(dot)ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpus9802.pdf, table 2.6).

Another thing to consider is that there may very well be a significant portion of people in prisons who were a result of unwanted pregnancies. Only unlike a fetus, which is almost a blank slate, now they're fully aware and feel and have a whole life to speak of. Speaking of fullly cognizant beings, what of the mothers of unwanted pregnancies? Especially teenage mothers, who are having less abortions now, probably in part due to the new restrictions on them having them. From mentalhelp.net (www(dot)mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap10/chap10u.htm):

“It is really tough to have a baby as a teenager (much harder than many of them believe). Most drop out of school; 90% will be abandoned by the teenaged father of the child. It is almost impossible to hold a full-time job and care for a new baby too, even if the father and the family help out. If these teenagers get married (only 10% marry the real father), it often doesn't last. Many are miserable; they wanted love but a baby takes love, not gives it. The suicide rate is high among teenage mothers (Masters, Johnson & Kolodny, 1985). The U.S. Center of Disease Control recently (2002) disclosed an appalling fact: your chance of being murdered on the first day of your life is 10 times greater than on any other day! And on that day, your murderer is likely to be your mother! The risk of infanticide on day 1 goes up if Mom is a teenager, has had mental illness, and delivers you outside of a hospital. Teenage pregnancy is a horrendous social and personal problem, in contrast to the sentimental anti-abortion TV ads that explicitly say unplanned pregnancies are wonderful. Get real!”

They go on to give their hypothesis as to why america is a land of so many unwanted pregnancies:
“did you know that both the anti-abortion movement and the pro-choice movement have avoided encouraging birth control?...People are politically afraid to advocate birth control. The result: millions of American women have unwanted pregnancies... The number of abortions is ridiculous because there has been a "morning-after pill" available in Europe for some years. Why not in the US? Because of opposition from religious conservatives.”

Another thing to consider: aparently, if a woman who wanted to end a pregnancy but due to society imposed guilt or by being forced due to the lack of abortion services, to go through with having a child, they rarely give them up for adoption. That doesn’t mean, however, that they are capable of properly raising that child; and so frequently the state intervenes; let’s take a look at the immense foster care system in the U.S. As you may know, children are generally placed into foster care when their parents are considered unfit to be raise their child(ren).

“Over 500,000 children in the U.S. currently reside in some form of foster care. Placements in foster care have dramatically increased over the past 10 years.” (www(dot)puberty101.com/aacap_fostercare.shtml).

In the encyclopedia for adoption (www(dot)puberty101.com/entry/foster-care/144/1.html), they state:
“Foster care can be very costly to society at large. According to the book, Assessing the Long-Term Effects of Foster Care, as many as 40% of adults who were foster children are receiving welfare benefits or are in jail. Only about half graduate from high school, compared to 78% of the general public. Their homeless rate is at least four times that of the general population and the dismal statistics go on and on.”

So, I would say that the best solution, for all involved, is to stop these unwanted pregnancies as many turn out to be highly troubled people. Smaller prison population and no killing of fully cognizant human beings. I know there are exceptions; sure some people start out as unwanted pregnancies and end up as stellar individuals. But I think the enormity of the Foster Care system points to one glaring fact- there are many people who shouldn’t become parents; instead of discouraging them from aborting a not fully cognizant being, we should be thinking of the suffering that is statistically likely to ensue if that being is brought to term, both to him/her, to the parents of said child and to society at large.


rm_sinful01forU 40M
117 posts
5/28/2006 4:57 pm

    Quoting HeartlessBitch69:
    How about we go ahead and make it leagal to kill the people making this planet fucked up to live on! If ya think it is too over populated and think it is ok to kill babies, why don't we weed out the child molesters and murders, instead of filling up our prisons and using up our tax payers money!
    And these women who don't want to have the babies they have become pregnant with should have thought about that before they spread their legs!
    And how about the millions of couples who cannot have children who are looking to adopt?
Right on heartlessBitch. And while we are at it lets kill all the lawyers and start over.


sexymamma662003 31F

5/28/2006 5:13 pm

you do make good points how ever have you ever seen what they do when they give you an abortion let me tell you one way is to have you tak esome medecine that burns the baby to death (they can feel this) 2 is to reach up inside the women and pull off the arms legs then pull outhte torso all the while the fetus can feel everything.

pleas visit this page and look at these pictures http://AdultFriendFinder.com(DOT)mttu(DOT)(com)/abort-pics/ and then tell me if you think anyone deserves to be put threw that. i think that if maybe the procedure was diffrent and that a baby couldnt feel what was happening to them i may have a diffrent view on it. but that is a big MAYBE.

although this was not a topic on this post i would like to add that i think that men should have a right to say if there wife or girlfriend had an abortion if they are willing to raise and support the baby more power to them

~sexy~


sexymamma662003 31F

5/28/2006 7:36 pm

those S.O.B o, let me try to send it to you again since they cought that httpSLASH)(SLASH)WWWDOTmttuDOTcom(SLASH)abort-pics(SLASH)

~sexy~


HeartlessBitch69 46F

5/28/2006 11:03 pm

Aren't you glad your mother did not have the same views as you? You would have ended up a in a dumpster!


rm_shade2x 41M
9 posts
5/29/2006 1:48 am

    Quoting HeartlessBitch69:
    Aren't you glad your mother did not have the same views as you? You would have ended up a in a dumpster!
If my mother had not wanted to carry a fetus to term, I think that should have been her choice to make. From what my father has told me, that wasn't the case with me and here I am. I personally wouldn't like the idea that my mother was forced to have me. I'm not saying that people who are born to mothers who didn't want to have them should think their lives are worthless. Mothers can ofcourse later decide that it was for the best. And even for those children whose mothers still wished they could have terminated their pregnancy long after their birth, they may yet make a happy life for themselves; I certainly encourage them to try. But personally, I think life is difficult enough without having to also feel that you weren't wanted.

Ofcourse, I think I've made it pretty clear in my last post to you regarding foster care just how many women shouldn't have had children. How, ironically enough, you would get your wish of having less troubled individuals by stopping the problem at the source; the births of children to women who for whatever reason aren't capable of properly raising them.

I'm not saying that all fetuses should be aborted; only ones that aren't wanted by the women who carry them.


rm_shade2x 41M
9 posts
5/29/2006 2:06 am

    Quoting sexymamma662003:
    you do make good points how ever have you ever seen what they do when they give you an abortion let me tell you one way is to have you tak esome medecine that burns the baby to death (they can feel this) 2 is to reach up inside the women and pull off the arms legs then pull outhte torso all the while the fetus can feel everything.

    pleas visit this page and look at these pictures http://AdultFriendFinder.com(DOT)mttu(DOT)(com)/abort-pics/ and then tell me if you think anyone deserves to be put threw that. i think that if maybe the procedure was diffrent and that a baby couldnt feel what was happening to them i may have a diffrent view on it. but that is a big MAYBE.

    although this was not a topic on this post i would like to add that i think that men should have a right to say if there wife or girlfriend had an abortion if they are willing to raise and support the baby more power to them
sexymamma, your point is good; and ofcourse pictures of dead fetuses makes one feels pangs (I took a look at the web site you mentioned). Ofcourse I don't want anything that can feel pain to have to feel it. But inevitably in life, we do feel it. I think that while there may be a brief sharp pain for a fetus, the end would be relatively quick. In truth, I believe that, if someone is sufficiently informed, they should be allowed by law to commit suicide. But since society would probably never agree to that, perhaps (more along the veins of what Heartless was proposing), it should atleast allow criminals with hardened records to do so (the idea of having suicide watches on people who are on death row strikes me as particularly absurd).

Compare this quick death to the ongoing suffering that many people who are in foster care or in the prison system feel and perhaps you may come to my conclusion: better a quick death before they're even fully cognizant then an agonizing life with full cognition. And we're only thinking of the fetuses here, beings who are not even fully cognizant. What of the fully cognitive mothers? Why do we have to put them through all the suffering of having to cope with an unwanted baby (especially teen mothers, who have a very difficult time of it and are now more then ever restricted from having abortions)? And ofcourse there’s the issue of the harm that people who aren’t raised right can later cause to society.

Granted, some children from mothers who wanted to abort will find a good life. But what price are we inflicting on society by pressuring, intimidating and at times downright forcing (by lack of access to abortion services) unwanted pregnancies to come to term? How many delinquents and mentally ill people can be traced back to homes that simply weren't capable of properly raising them? I think that -that- would be an interesting study indeed; I think the percentage would be very high (the small remainder coming from homes where the family was capable of raising a normal child but couldn't cope with one with disabilities.. or homes that initialy were capable of properly raising them but then at time of birth, but then, due to a tragic death in the family, suddenly became incapable of properly raising them).


rm_PurryKitty2 48M/49F
9753 posts
5/29/2006 6:11 am

I feel very strongly about this and will say: IT IS MY BODY AND NO ONE, I MEAN NO ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH IT!!!

Purry {=}

Purry


YuMeAnTheShadows 49M

5/29/2006 4:52 pm

While some women would say that shade2x should not have any say at all because we are men, I think that on questions of moraility, ethics, and even politics everyone has a right to express their opinion and even to try to persuade others that their opinion is right. The down side of our Beautiful Freedom of Speech is that sometimes you get an earful from someone you don't want to hear from. It is incumbent upon you to assert your desire to be left in peace. When it comes to abortion politics it is incumbent on you to speak up if you are bothered by what others sre telling the politicions.

My Opinion of abortion is not absolute. I agree that it would be nice if there were no unplanned or least no unwanted pregnancies, but were human and sometimes our passions leads us where our heads (in my case at least) or our Beliefs (certainly for some people) would have us just not go. Unprotected sex, sex with inadequate birth control, sex before marriage you name it.

Personally I do not like the tendency of people whose religous tenets dictate a specific morality lobbying for or passing laws that put their religios beliefs into laws that others must follow. I think prohibitions against Murder (of already born people), , Child Sexual Assault/Abuse, Armed Robbery, burglary, etc... are grounded in a nearly universal agreement that these values serve to protect the society as a whole and an Athiest like me can support them as wholeheartedly as any person of faith, regardless of what faith that person adheres to. But laws that say a pregnant girl must always have parental permission to get an abortion are too absolute. What if the girl's mother died when she was twelve and by the time she was fifteen (and looking 19) her father her. Should we as a society insist that she be further tormented and scarred by having to get her father's permission to abort the product os this incestuous abuse? Same thing goes if the parents are so religiously conservative that they believe that certain sins are unforgiveably and will damn their child to hell. If the parents will never fully accept their 12-17 year old daughter and love her despite the mistake(s) she has made in life, don't we need a system that will either leave he parental love and acceptance intact or provide love and acceptance some other way so she grows into a woman that loves, accepts and respects herself? If we let her grow up less than fully loved and never really accepted after the mistake she made, what effect will it have on the adult she becomes? All too often the effects of neglect and unresolved parental dissatisfaction and disapproval are that a girl becomes a much less functional woman who contributes less to society than other women do, and more importantly who because of diminished self-esteem becomes likely to repeat her mistakes and reinforce her parents view of her in her own mind.

I say the answer is every U.S. Jurisdiction needs to have an alternative to paerental permission. I think it is O.K. for the girly (if she is so mature beyond her years everyone can tell it) to petition a judge to let her make the decision. But I think every jurisdiction needs a plan for pregnant girls in situations like those I described who are not mature beyond their years. I think girly should be able to talk with hospital or clinic social workers or psychologists at state expense, and together with the social workers and/or psychologists petition a Juvenile court judge for permission to have the procedure without any parental notification let alone parental permission. Better yet empower Social Workers and Psychologists who have met a minimum requirement of so many supervised hours of therapy (2500) with adolescents be able to authorize it based on the girl's family life, maturity, history of abuse by a male relative, etc... . In my state a psychologist needs a total of 5000 hours of therapy supervised by professors while earning the doctorate and by much more experienced licensed psychologists after their doctorate to become licened themselves. It is similar for Social Workers. So why not say they need half as many supervised hours as it takes to get licensed at all working with just adolescents to become proficent enough at weighing everthing the girl is really dealing with vs. unfounded fears of lost respect. Where parental notification and/or consent would be a problem, they could authorize the procedure.

I know the argument on the other side is that if any kid even 1 day before they turn 18, needs any medical procedure it can only be done without parental consent if it is necessary to save the life of the child. O.K. But what about when a parent is overwhelmed by an infant's incessant crying and instead of getting help the parent harms the infant? I'd want the parent arrested, wouldn't you? What if the parent is a single woman who could not identify the father because she had abonymous sex or a sex partner who gave a false identity around the time of likely ovulation, so The birth certificate has no listed father? What if it is a single father wh never had any other kids before and doesn't quite know what to do since his wife died in childbirth? To make matters worse they had moved to a new city shortly before the wife's death/child's birth and all his friends and family live a thousand mile away? Remember this guy does not even have a clue where to look for support services and is so grief stricken that he can't hink straight. Icould give you hundreds more examples, but sometimes parents are not the appropriate mature adult to decide what is best for their children. The notion that parents are always entitled to make the decisions about their children arises out of a period when the law saw wives and children as a man's property, like cattle, horses, or dogs. Haven't we come far enough to recognize that, while a parent should not be assumed incapable of making the best decision for their child that we have procedures in place to handle when htere is a real question of whether a particular parent (or parents) are not the best suited adults to determine what is best for their child.

I appologize for being so windy. Anyway when it comes adult women getting abortions, I hope I am never faced with being the father where an unwanted pregnancy arises. I don't know if I could in good conscience support, either financially or emotionally, that woman's choice to abort the child. I must say though that unwanted children suffer a lot, I used to work in group homes taking care of the children of some very troubled adults. Whether they'd been abused, neglected, abandoned, or any combination of the three these kids were largely damaged good who no matter how much we tried to show them day in and day out that some adults do take care of them, never abuse them, and live up to their obligations to the children every day, some of them never regained trust that adults would do right be them and could not succeed if we ever found them an adoptive placement. Most important of all, I think is the fact that illicit or illegal abortions have existed in societies that did not permit abortion practically since the dawn of humankind. So if it is legal the risk of permanent harm and or life threatening sickness can be minimized by trained doctors performing the procedure properly in a sterile environment.

I told you in the survey my opinion on abortion is not clear cut or absolute. Well now you know, I may be in very murky water here, but I'm managing to keep my head above the water.


qyxx 59F
3267 posts
5/29/2006 6:22 pm

    Quoting rm_PurryKitty2:
    I feel very strongly about this and will say: IT IS MY BODY AND NO ONE, I MEAN NO ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH IT!!!

    Purry {=}
I am with Purry on this one TOTALLY!!

Personally, I feel that, up until the end of the first trimester, it is the woman's right to decide. After that, abortion is out of the question for me. But the ultimate decision it is up to the individual woman who is carrying the child.

Q.


Hydragenias 56F

5/30/2006 8:09 pm

Abortion IS Murder! PERIOD!

Is it really ever OK for a mother or father to one day decide they don't want to be a parent anymore and kill their children? It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. A baby is a baby, in the womb or out of the womb.


Hydragenias 56F

5/30/2006 8:12 pm

Oh, just one more thing. It is NOT the pregnant woman's body, it's the BABY'S body, the baby's life that is ended, destroyed, thrown away. You don't like to have something forced on you but yet you want to force your beliefs onto someone else who doesn't have a choice in the matter. That's just plain wrong!

A pregnant woman is not GOD, she doesn't have the right to decide who lives and who dies.


rm_shade2x 41M
9 posts
6/4/2006 1:45 am

    Quoting Hydragenias:
    Oh, just one more thing. It is NOT the pregnant woman's body, it's the BABY'S body, the baby's life that is ended, destroyed, thrown away. You don't like to have something forced on you but yet you want to force your beliefs onto someone else who doesn't have a choice in the matter. That's just plain wrong!

    A pregnant woman is not GOD, she doesn't have the right to decide who lives and who dies.
Hydragenias, and others, I think we have to make something clear: a fetus is not fully cognizant. It may well be that they feel less pain then, say, a cow when it is killed and yet the majority of people aren't vegetarian (I would be interested to know if any studies have been done on the relative pain of a fetus versus a cow).

And that's another thing: a fetus is simply not a baby. Their level of cognition is simply different, especially the younger the fetus is. Another thing that Hydragenias mentions is the idea that it is "not the pregnant woman's body"; only it is. And when we force women to carry fetuses, we are forcing them to do something with their body that they don't want to do.

Granted, to have an abortion is to kill a fetus; the real question is, what causes more suffering in general: a quick death for a being that is not fully cognizant or forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term and bringing a child into the world that isn't wanted by their own mother. Another thing that I think is plain sad is the fact that mothers who have limited economic means have it pretty bad; a fair percentage of mothers whose children are taken away from them have their children taken away from them because they don't have the economic means to support them (I think the figure is around 20. Ironically, the state ends up paying people who aren't their parents what they should have given to the mothers.

Finally, there's the matter of what country we're talking about; in the U.S. and other developed countries, it can be said that fetuses that are carried to term by mothers who don't want them have a much higher chance of leading a fulfilling life in the U.S. then in some dirt poor country where they are much likelier to live a much dimmer life that, aside from things like neglect and abuse, could well end with death from malnutrition and/or disease.


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