posts 4/28/2006 10:40 am
4/29/2006 1:23 pm
Spanish Star Spangled Banner?
Can we draw the line somewhere PLEASE? I'll tolerate the PC "undocumented workers" and I don't need a wall or an army on the border, but I draw the line when my national anthem gets put into another language to appease a bunch of people who came here without going through the appropriate process. Change your own fucking country before you come over and start taking over mine. Christ, I have no problem with a million of you pouring over the border and doing all the jobs I'm not going to do, but learn to speak the language at least enough to know our freaking anthem. It's bad enough the English speaking folks can't remember the words!
posts4/28/2006 11:51 am
um... english is not the language of the americas but the language of the colonists who flocked across the borders from elsewhere and took over...|
|rm_Ptalk1155 replies on 4/28/2006 12:52 pm:|
Very True. But, I did not claim English was the language of the Americas. I said it is the language of my country, the United States, used to bridge the gap between the varying cultures and other languages. If we all spoke...I dunno...Cherokee to accomplish that, I would argue they should learn that. But English is what we use, so English is what I expect to hear. If you come to the US, I expect you to have enough of a grasp of it that you can communicate. I would not go to another country without a grasp of their native tongue.
If you're going to compare the "flocking across the borders" of European settlers with Latin Americans, then I have to assume that those coming across the border are imperialistic colonists invading to take land and resources away from the existing population. In which case, we are at war with Central and South America and should begin killing settlers just like the Native Americans did when they realized what was going on.
I believe there's a huge, huge difference between immigration and invasion. The biggest difference between them is that immigrants come and acclimate to the existing culture, rather than simply replace it with their own. Part of that acclimation, in this case, is learning to speak English. If you're an immigrant, you don't come to a country and rewrite their national anthem to better suit you. That's the kind of thing a conquering army does.
So which are they? Invading colonists that should be slaughtered or immigrants that should be welcomed and instructed in our ways? I would hope they are the latter.
posts4/28/2006 12:06 pm
I do think it is a shame when people can't remember the words to the National Anthem. However, I have a hard time finding fault with people who love this country so much that they decide to sing our National Anthem in their native language.|
When you say 'learn the language', which language are you referring to? There is no official language in this country, and for good reason -- we have freedom of speech, which means we can speak however we like, including in Spanish, or Gaelic, or German, or Hindi, or Japanese, or Vietnamese, or Athabaskan, or Hopi, or any one of a hundred other different languages.
The problem isn't the immigrants to this country - the problem is the xenophobic policies that don't provide a legitimate pathway to entry to this country for the people we've come to rely on to do jobs that American citizens won't do. If we do that, there will be good news and bad news; the good news is that we'll make legitimate all of the people that are here working hard to feed their families back in their home countries. The bad news is, we'll still have undocumented people, but it will be a lot easier to make the argument that people who are unable to qualify or unwilling to follow the process don't belong here. We've created this problem ourselves, and we're passing the blame to people who are exactly what this country has always been about - hard work, and the ability to create something - the American Dream - from our labors. And unless you're Native American, this is exactly how your family and mine got to be where we are today.
I don't understand how people feel threatened because people LOVE us and our country. Seems to me it is the ones that don't love us that we should be worried about. You don't see the people you're talking about in this entry flying airplanes into our buildings.
|rm_Ptalk1155 replies on 4/28/2006 1:34 pm:|
Your first mistake is assuming they're doing it out of love. If they loved it so much, they'd want to learn to sing it in English. Moreover, last I heard, the reason for it was not a love for their country, but a symbolic protest of our "xenophobic" policies. You want to tell me the people walking the streets waving Mexican flags love America?
Yes, we have freedom of speech. Yes, there is no "official" language. However, the Spanish, Gaelic, Hindi, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Hopi have to be able to communicate with each other. We aren't all learning to speak every language of every group that shows up. What we do learn is English, so that when my Italian ancestors needed to talk to my French, Irish, and Polish ancestors, they had a common language to use. As I said to FreeLove, there's a difference between an immigration and invasion. The primary responsiblity of any immigrant is to learn the ways of the place they're going. The first step in doing that is to learn the main method communication.
The problem is not the xenophobic policies. The problem is that Latin America is still in the third world. The people coming here are not so much looking to be Americans as fleeing their homelands. This isn't about a love for America or the American dream, it's about getting the hell out of Mexico, Guatemala, Columbia...etc. Half of Mexico is trying to move to the US. That's just insane! That means Mexico needs to be fixed up, not that the US need to let more people in. We're not xenophobic towards countries that don't have millions of people already trying to get in. We're just trying to keep all of Central and South America from moving into the US. There's a bigass line and the illegals are cutting it.
And beyond that, I can understand why people are becoming more and more xenophobic. Those people who flew airplanes into our buildings took advantage of our hospitality first. They got into the short lines, learned the language, attended our schools, and paid their taxes. So the question becomes, why should we let anyone else in at all? Nevermind the legal ones.
But, I digress. I'm not threatened by someone who loves my country. Someone who loves my country wants to do everything the way my country does things. They want to BE an American, not a Mexican in America. The want to learn English. They want to sing the anthem. They want to work hard and pay taxes. They want to vote. Etc. If you want a Spanish Anthem, go to a Spanish country. If you want the Star Spangled Banner, come to America.
posts4/29/2006 12:46 am
i'm not implying either. i am saying that language changes are a phenomenon of history, and there's nothing wrong with multi-linguilism -- i don't see what so offensive about it; in fact i think it is something to be proud of!|
i also don't see why immigrants should be assimilationist; everyone should be able to express their culture in whatever way they wish regardless of where they live. borders are a man-made invention anyway and there is certainly nothing natural about them.
|rm_Ptalk1155 replies on 4/29/2006 7:10 am:|
I didn't say people couldn't be multilingual. They don't have to stop speaking their own language or embracing their own culture. But, they DO have to learn the culture and language of the place they're going if for no other reason than to be able to communicate with the people there. What offends me is that they refuse to do that. They want all the benefits our society has to offer, but they refuse to so much as learn the language we all use to communicate with each other.
posts4/29/2006 11:48 am
i wanted want to learn about people who didn't want to learn about me either, and who resented me expressing pride for my home by singing in the language i feel most comfortable with.|
and secondly i don't think the benefits of a prosperous society should be reserved for those who agree to be assimilated... this world belongs to all of us and we should all enjoy the benefits of it, regardless of what language we choose to speak!