rm_Ptalk1155 34M
3428 posts
11/17/2005 10:05 am

Last Read:
3/5/2006 9:27 pm


A word to strike fear into the hearts of politicians everywhere!

I figure this is a good a place as any to get into this one. I woke up this morning and on the news I heard this issue come up when referring Judge Alito's nomination to the Supreme Court. Apparently, at some point he said that the Constitution does not protect a woman's right to an abortion. He's correct, it doesn't.

That's not really the issue to me. My problem is that every time a judge comes up for review, this is the first thing everyone wants to know about, as if the Supreme Court or any other body would overturn Roe v. Wade. For one, they'd have to receive and accept an abortion case to even get the chance to discuss the issue. For two, people seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court does not make laws, simply deems laws unconstitutional or not (despite attempts by activist judges across the country to do otherwise). There isn't a legislature in the country (certainly not the US Congress) that could pass a full anti-abortion law, so it's never going to come up. The best they'll get is partial birth abortions and stuff like teenagers not having to tell their parents.

A judge's potential opinions on abortion are meaningless to their ability to discern whether or not a law is Constitutional. Any judge worth his robe is going to look at the Constitution first and then if necessary consult his own feelings. He shouldn't get shot down immediately if he so much as hints that he doesn't believe in abortion. Our Senators have wasted so much time and energy ripping into candidates' pasts trying to find any inkling they might even consider the possibility of saying they're against abortion.

Now, you probably would like to know what I think about abortion since I probably sound like a raving right wing nutjob. My feeling is this: there's not enough scientific proof that life begins at conception for me to state that a baby (before it starts kicking) is considered a new life and simply not another part of the mother. I happen to believe life does, in fact, begin at conception, but from a legal standpoint, what I believe and what can be proven are entirely different. So what does that mean? It means a woman (and her man if he's in the picture) has a right to consider abortion as an option and then live with the decision.
But, do I think they should choose abortion? No. Do I think we should encourage abortion? No.
Do I think we should discourage abortion? Yes.
Do I think I could ever consider abortion an option? No.
As far as I'm concerned, every time you have intercourse you have given your consent to the universe to create life. If life happens, then you need to accept that as a consequence of your decision. Even with BC, 99.999999% effective still leaves room for a .000001% chance that you're going to end up with a kid. Small chance? Yep. But Possible? Yep.
( is obviously a different story, but I'm not going to get into it here.)
And, should you choose to end that life, you may indeed be preventing the birth of the next Einstein. (It could be the next Hitler, or even the next Ptalk, and while we don't need another of either, I think an Einstein is worth one of each.)

People don't seem to understand that you can be pro-choice and still choose NOT to do it. And, even stating that the right isn't expressly protected by the Constitution does not mean a person is anti-choice.

This all of course returns to the Amendments which appear to imply a right to privacy, but that's another topic entirely.

Bottom line, a judge's position on abortion should not be the end all deciding factor in their confirmation.


11/17/2005 10:52 am


rm_sj365 55F
2414 posts
11/17/2005 6:31 pm

nice blog.
the constitution doesnt speak to abortion rights...
the constitution does not delineate our rights as citizens, it delineates our governments LIMITS of power over us as citizens.
the constitution isn't about what people can do; it's about what government can & cannot do.

i think a stance on abortion is simply that..one part of a puzzle.

tillerbabe 56F

11/17/2005 11:16 pm

Great post...I am "PRO CHOICE"..and I will state it before everyon ehere and GOD, I have had TWO..yes count them (2) abortions. This doesn't mean I would "use" that choice today..but at the time..it was what needed to be done...I have no regrets.

rm_Ptalk1155 34M
3450 posts
11/18/2005 8:18 am

Thanks to every one who chimed in.

Tiller: Even if I don't agree with the decision, I respect it and you anyway. And that's mainly because you just did the thing that most people won't/can't do, took full responsibility for your decision and explained your choice. As long as it was the right thing for you at the time, then none of us have any right to say otherwise.

rm_LtsPly123 52M
2 posts
11/18/2005 6:29 pm

Good blog...& hear hear! Couldn't help but comment...Always good to see intelligence.I am "PRO CHOICE" although after you read the story i wrote years ago you might not have been sure...lol. Any ladies that read this please don't hold it against me...just having a little fun w/ the battle of the sexes.I had forgotten about it until i read your blog. Every now & then i have that particular conversation that sparks something that won't leave my head & i write a short story about it. Maybe some day i'll have enough to put together a book. It would be a humorous book on Hypocrasy. Hypocrasy being probably the #1 human downfall that i just don't have the tolerance or patience for. This particular short was written long ago as i said when i was still married & it just happenned to be a conversation on "Pro Choice" between me & my wife. Anyways, thought you might get a kick out of it...figured i'd let it breathe & see if anyone enjoys it. Feel free to like or dislike it. You won't hurt my feelings. This is the first time to ever let someone i don't know read it...so feel free to let me know if you get at least 1 laugh out of it. I just pasted where it starts to get into the topic so excuse the abrupt start. Enjoy!!
"""So, back to my story and the reason I’m writing to you tonight, lying in this hospital bed….I was having fun, minding my own business, and playing with my five year old son on our playstation two. He was kicking my butt as usual and everything seemed fine until I hear my wife in the background muttering something and obviously not very happy about what she was talking to herself about. That should have been my first clue to keep minding my own business, but hey, us men have never really been good at knowing when to talk and when not to. So, I asked. “What’s wrong dear?” More unhappy remarks in the background and something derogatory about men. My second clue. Apparently no one ever accused us men of being smart either.
Then it happened. The question from hell that has changed my point of view about fairness and equality between the sexes forever. The war of the sexes has always had its normal arguments. Women are better at this, Women are better at that, and maybe Men are better at this if they have a good woman behind them. If you’re a smart man, you’ll agree to that and cut your losses short. It never really mattered to me how much better my wife was than me just as long as she was happy which was the key to my happiness and welfare. It started out sweet. My third and final clue. “Honey? You do believe in Pro choice for women, Don’t you?”…..Hey, no problem. This was no trick question and as easy as it gets…. “Why, of course dear. It’s their bodies and who better to judge whats right for them than themselves.” Obviously no one knows more about right than women. Of course I kept that statement to myself. No sense in ruining a good thing. “Why do you ask?” Stupid, stupid question. “Oh, it’s just amazing how many men in this world think they have the right to tell us women what we can and can’t do.” Only one way to reply to that. “Yes, a lot of stupid people out there. Yep yep yep.”
Now, I’m not that stupid, so I bite down on my lip real hard, come back to reality and run like hell. I’m not sure what the statistics show as far as which sex is against pro choice more and I wasn’t about to comment on it. I’m going back to where it’s safe and get blown to smithereens by my son in a game of his choice. Just happy to know that I had answered correctly and was given a free pass to go. If only I had left it there. As I was getting comfortable and ready to die a much better death by my son’s hand in our favorite pass time, The wheels started turning. “Hey honey, let me ask you a question if I may. Do you believe that a man has the same right?” This is where it starts to get ugly. “What do you mean?” she says. “Well, let’s just say, that the woman gets pregnant, and it was a one night stand. Regardless of her decision, the man doesn’t want a child at this time for whatever reason. Should he have the right to terminate his obligations to that child, both emotionally and financially?” Why I asked that I don’t know. Just playing devil’s advocate I guess. A very bad habit of mine. “Of course not.” She said. Didn’t even blink an eye. “Why should he have a right to walk away from that child. He was the one that was irresponsible enough to get in the situation, and if he wants nothing to do with her or the child, he most definitely will pay his share in supporting that child!”
Now let me say this right here and now. I believe that any true man would step up to the plate and not only support his child, but also be a big part of that child’s life. But the point wasn’t what should be, but what rights should we have when an unexpected pregnancy occurs. So, I dove in. “True, very irresponsible on both parties I might add. So, being that they were irresponsible, and that neither wanted or planned on a child, should a man have the same right as a woman to choose whether or not he wants the child?” I can already hear the blood boiling, but I had to open pandora’s box. I added quite quickly, “Don’t get me wrong dear, any man not wanting to support his own child is the devil incarnate regardless what the law states. But the laws on this are quite clear I believe. The woman does have the right to choose whether to have the baby or not, even if that choice is to have an abortion when the man wants the child. The man on the other hand has no choice. Good or bad that he may be, his involvement is decided by the woman. If she keeps the baby, he has no say so and will be forced to support the child.”
I could tell by the look on my wife’s face that the honeys and sweets talk was over. “How can you say that? What about the child’s rights? And the man did have a choice. He could have used protection or just kept his little head in its pocket!” Oh boy, I was in for the long haul and already knew I was going to lose no matter what the outcome. How can I get out of this. “Well, as far as the child’s rights go, he or she obviously has none in this situation. I’m sure if the child had any, surely he/she would choose to live. As far as protection, how can we blame the man over the woman? I’m going out on a limb here but I would say they are both equally at fault which kind of null and voids punishing either unless you punish both to be fair. So, what’s done is done, now how can we be fair to both parties involved.” If I had a dime for every time I heard her next statement, I would not have been here in the first place to get myself in this mess. I would be somewhere else, playing a virtual reality game with my son, with headsets on. “YOU’RE STARTING TO PISS ME OFF!” I hear my son’s game volume suddenly rise. He is a very smart kid, unlike his father. She continued as I knew she would. “First of all, if the woman made the choice not to have the child, for whatever reasons, that would be taken care of during the first trimester before the child develops. It is the woman’s body and therefore it has to be her choice. Right or wrong, ultimately it has to be her decision.” I could see the veins now. Someone help me.“ When I said what about the child’s rights, MR. SMARTY, if the man is not held responsible to support that child, then the child loses. It’s not the child’s fault he has a shit for a father. If a man had the right to just walk away and not be held responsible he would just move on his merry way producing fatherless children and my God, I shudder to think of those consequences.” What a great point. I find myself like I always do trying to defend myself for agreeing with her. Now I know this is a touchy subject for most. And I am the last person to be talking about the moral issues involved here. Whether it’s right or wrong, if theres a choice that can be made, it is the woman’s body, and she has every right to make that choice. I did agree to that in the first place didn’t I? But I did have a point to make, if only I can find my way back in my wife’s grace long enough to make it and live to be wrong another day. LOL! Well, no turning back now. “I totally agree with you honey! Men can be the worst! Trust me, I’m not advocating letting anyone off the hook. Let’s look at the big picture and let me show you what I was leading to.” Frantically trying to put my ducks in a row. Oh, you should see the amused look on her face. I could tell she already had her comeback to whatever I was going to say so I had to do my best to make sense quickly and try to confuse her. “We both know the problems with unexpected pregnancies, especially teenage pregnancies and a number of many other reasons why women should have the choice to choose. Let’s start with the initial issue.” I could tell I was fighting a losing battle. “Who’s responsibility is birth control? Now I know how you feel, and being a man the last thing I would ever want to do is put my self into a situation where I had no control of it. I did say at first that both were equally responsible but I’m going to back track on that.”…. What the hell am I doing? Am I suicidal? I can see it now. St. Peter shaking his head at me saying, “Sorry, I can’t let you in. You knew better. Be careful on your way down….i continued. “Using your defense that it is the woman’s body therefore she is the only one who has the right to choose, wouldn’t it be fair to say then that she would also be the one ultimately responsible to control what happens to her body?” ….Ducking the flying debris in the air now…. “I know that if I was a woman, and my body was the only one affected, I sure as hell wouldn’t leave it to chance for a man to screw it up, whom we all know are mostly shits. Now, speaking of rights, we either have 2 or 3 people involved. The man, the woman, & the child if it is considered a child. But it has to be one way or the other for both parties.”…. My son wisely went to bed a while ago. I saw that pitiful look he gave me, the kind you give someone when you don’t know how to say I’m sorry your dying….i foolishly continued. “It’s not fair to say its not a child so its ok to have an abortion, and then turn around and say it is a child therefore the man can’t choose because he’s violating the child’s rights. So, again, right or wrong, if you’re a woman who believes you deserve the right, obviously you’ve made your moral decision. I have always agreed with that right until now. “ ….Ouch! That hurt! Taking cover behind the bar. Better make myself a drink while I’m here…. “Now hon, hear me out before you kill me. I’m not changing my view on pro choice due to a morality issue. I’m changing it because now I see why its so easy to be irresponsible. And instead of helping the problem, we as a society are creating the loophole to make it easier not to take the issue very seriously. Why can’t a man make the same moral decision? If he feels that it is not a child yet, Why is he any worse than the woman? Why don’t men deserve the same right? If it is considered a child immediately at conception, which is worse? Killing the child or stealing from it? The woman still has the ultimate choice when deciding, if there are to be any choices. Give the man the same right. What happens? Now, the woman knowing that if she’s irresponsible on birth control, she may be stuck all alone, if she decides to have the baby with no support. I wonder how many unexpected pregnancies that would cut down alone? She also still has the right to choose not to have the baby. Fairs fair. If the man decides he doesn’t want the child, now she can make the best decision for her and her baby. If it wasn’t a moral problem with her to begin with, and she is worried about the child’s welfare financially and emotionally, it shouldn’t be too hard for her to make her decision. If you don’t give men the same rights, and let only women choose, what’s to motivate the woman to really care about irresponsibility? After all, if she makes that mistake, she always has that loophole to fall on, so she’s relatively safe. If you gave men the same rights you definitely couldn’t hold them ultimately responsible for the birth control, because they would know they could walk away. Who better to be the one ultimately responsible for birth control than the one who has to carry and berth the child? That’s why she gets the ultimate decision on whether to have the child or not. The man can still not tell you what to do, no matter what his wishes are. He’s not trying to take any of your rights away. And if men have the same right, And women are held responsible for the birth control, just think how many women are going to be wasting their time or taking a chance with men without protecting themselves? So, if men can’t have or don’t deserve the same right, then I have to say women shouldn’t have the right either. If women didn’t have that right, I bet you’d see a major decrease in unexpected or unwanted pregnancies. Think about it. You make the law the same for both, and either way we’re now encouraging responsibility, making it a more serious issue. We’re also giving the responsibility for better birth control to the sex that can handle the responsibility. She will make sure he abides by her will as far as protection goes or he will just have to do without. I’d hate to see them take this choice away from women, but fairs fair. Make the system work better not just for us but for all the kids waiting to join us and teach us a thing or two. I prefer pro choice for both. But until you change the laws allowing them both to have the same choice, I have to stop being pro choice. I have to be anti-abortion & expect both parties involved to support that child no matter where he/she ends up.”….I was proud of myself being stupid enough to stand my ground and speak up. It made me brave enough to turn & meet my wife’s gaze that I had been intentionally avoiding while I made my righteous speech. I gulped my drink down, looked up & over…...........

I saw my wife’s arm raise up…there was a familiar clicking noise…I tried to scream…”I was just kidd…”…Bang!! Out goes the lights….......... I’m standing in front of St. Peter, & he doesn’t look happy. He says, “John, whose voice do you think it was you heard inside that head of yours when you told yourself not to end up here? Hmmmmm? Didn’t we have this discussion last time you were here? IT WAS MY VOICE!” ….I cringe & he continues…. “And what have I told you over & over will keep happening to you until you learn?” I realize unfortunately that he’s stopped talking & now is waiting for me to speak so i answer with a pleading voice, “You said you will keep sending me back to her until I learn it right & not let or invoke her to kill me. That you have to be able to let her in here when her time is up or you’ll be in trouble with the big guy.” I hoped to get a question in before he did what i knew he was going to do, i started “But St. Peter, when will that be & why”…POOF….Shit! I’m real conscious of this feeling & know what’s going to happen next….....shit shit shit!!

I wake up, & I’m in the hospital room. I’m alone…thank God!! All of a sudden I hear a throat clearing. I turn & see her…my dear wife…smiling. Suddenly I can’t catch my breath & realize why. She has the oxygen line in her hand & is squeezing it. She leans over & whispers in my ear. “Honey, do you believe in pro choice?” Tears are coming out of my eyes…I can’t breathe…I choke a reply. “Yes dear, I do.” She releases the line just a little so my head gets just a sweet taste of air & I realize she’s still waiting….I reply w/ the right answer….”But for women only Dear!!” ….She lets go & smiles. She gets up & walks to the door & turns around as she opens it. “Now be a good dear & hurry up with the healing & come home. I miss not having you around & being able to talk to you.” ….She leaves & I look over at the oxygen line & try to grab it when I hear a voice chuckle in my head...saying I know that I can’t do that. I wanted to scream but my son walks in & plops on the bed beside me. He looks at me with his intelligent eyes & says smiling “Well daddy, i timed it. This time you actually lasted twelve minutes longer than last time. But not the twenty minutes you bet on. I said ten minutes so my guess was closer. You owe me five dollars.” He patted me on my head, which hurt like hell & said “You’re the greatest dad ever even if you are the silliest.” I couldn’t help but smile as he left. I know next time i’ll do better. Got to remember to shut up longer….Lol!! "Nurse?!! I need a pen & some paper please"...............

rm_Ptalk1155 34M
3450 posts
11/18/2005 7:06 pm

You raise a very good point there. Something which I never really got into when I think about abortion. Men are held to an amazingly different standard when it comes to pregnancy. The man is always "at fault" for the pregnancy, and will end up paying child support, else he is a deadbeat dad. Similarly, if he wants the baby, and the mother doesn't, she can have an abortion over his objection.

But, we live in a world of double standards.

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