On the Dath Penalty  

frogger1995 39F
4342 posts
12/12/2005 6:07 am

Last Read:
3/5/2006 9:27 pm

On the Dath Penalty

Once again my home state is an embarrassment. After the "recall" fiasco, which unfortunately happened while I was residing in Seattle, I had to hide my face in public.

Now it's much more serious. It's not as though California has never committed legalized murder. It's just never been so public, and on such an undeserving individual.

I won't repeat the reasons why Stan Tookie Williams alone should live, as that would be in some way a nod to the acceptance of the death penalty. Instead I will focus on the death penalty alone...which is just plain wrong no matter how you look at it.

The Death Penalty in America only further reveals to the world what sanctimonious hypocrites we are. Anyone looking from the outside in would view our moral posturings as a joke.

Our government's policy toward helping the poor is preposterous.

Our claim of wanting to bring democracy to the world is shattered when we look at our actions towards countries like Venezuela (educate yourselves on it)

We try our darnedest deny the most basic rights like the right to marry and die to our own citizens.

We have no problem flushing our own Bill of Rights down the toilet when we happen to dislike the results it brings about like allowing people to burn the flag or allowing UNCHARGED individuals in custody the right to an attorney.

Now we are thumbing our noses at all the countries who have decided to do away with killing their citizens by going ahead on the execution known the world over. And make no mistake...I can tell you before it even happens that Arnold will NOT be granting clemency...just wait.

What amazes me the most is that all these supposed moralists, you know, like the individuals who will picket and terrorize abortion clinics in defense of fertilized eggs, have no compulsion when it comes to what they know full well is nothing more than state sanctioned MURDER.

Even that holier-than-thou bastard Bush was directly responsible for the deaths of over 150 human beings during his term as governor of Texas. And yes, when you have the ability to prevent the death of an individual by a single stroke of your pen, you are DIRECTLY responsible for those deaths.

So listen up America. Either get off your high horse or straighten up your act!

In protest of the death penalty there will be no list of things to be happy about.


bullseyetou 63M
175 posts
12/12/2005 8:07 am

Applause frogger.

In "Breakfast of Champions" Kurt Vonegaut wrote that when you have the death penalty in a society you can only be sure of two things:
1. A lot of nice poor people are going to die.
2. A lot of rich bastards will go free.

My conclusion is that the death penalty promotes injustice in a society that decides truth on the basis of emotionalism where the only way out is to buy a ticket. Bull


sillyperv 54M

12/12/2005 8:21 am

I read somewhere that you can get a read on the health of a country by how it treats it's disenfranchised. I'd love to be smug about America but in Canada there is an increasing need to villianize and punish our poor and destitute. It's appalling. I don't understand how our societies are so willing to betray our ideals. It's not that we are failing, failure means at least we're trying, it's that we seem to have cast them aside so easily.


WildWon1982 34M

12/12/2005 8:35 am

There's only one instance where I agree with the death penalty. And that's when the statutes of the state dictate that the choice for sentence is death, or life without the possibility of parole. Either way, the convicted person will spend the rest of his life in prison, and he will die there (I use "he" because men are 10 times more likely to be sentenced to death than women for the same crime). In this case, you might as well execute him. He's going to die in the prison anyway, might as well put his mind at ease so that he knows when and how it will happen.


rm_VoodooGuru1 49M
2053 posts
12/12/2005 8:37 am

You don't read my blog very often, do ya Frogger? For a high level, principled opinion on the death penalty, go here: Kill Me Deadly.

But, since my beliefs are based on theory, and therefore distanced, I'm a bit apathetic when someone like Tookie Williams gets a needle.

I think I also mention Venezuala & Chavez in that post.


rm_gent258 68M
486 posts
12/12/2005 8:53 am

I agree with you: it is hypocritical to worry about fertilized eggs and then condone state approved murder. Let's just give the bad ones like Williams life in prison with no parole.


JudeL5 46M
1550 posts
12/12/2005 9:07 am

An imperfect justice system, regularily convicts innocent people. It's imperfect because "us people" are imperfect.

Back when Canada still did CP (we stopped in the 60s I think), the stats were 1 innocent person was killed each year.... and we never did the numbers the US does.

Besides, it COSTS MORE to keep someone on death row than just keep them in jail.... with the endless lawyers, courts time, appeals....


letigre1974 42M

12/12/2005 9:10 am

i'm not exactly sure what tri-mester abortion equates to for the death penalty, but essentially, it is the same thing. in otherwords, i am agreeing with your anger about the death penalty, but i am feeling really hypocritcal as i am typing this while wearing a t-shirt that says 'accessory to murder' next to an image of a bottle of bbq sauce.


TalonDuddyTonks 47M
659 posts
12/12/2005 9:57 am

I will agree with a lot of the other points in your article, however, I will respectfully disagree with the blanket statement against the death penalty. I think there is a place in a civilized society for capital punishment. Can the way we do it and when it is applied be improved? Certainly.


Sorceror07 54M

12/12/2005 10:27 am

the death penalty is bullshit, whether you believe in it or not the system is a total waste and those on death row may just as well have life imprisonment...

i used to believe in the death penalty... i've had a change of heart on that... but here's a twist, the victim's family should be given the option to throw the switch! now, that may be somewhat "eye for an eye" but that IS justice.

if the death penalty really worked though, there'd be no need for it. just a thought

...That which does not kill me merely pisses me off!...


rm_anacortes 74M
2850 posts
12/12/2005 10:28 am

Even that holier-than-thou bastard Bush was directly responsible for the deaths of over 150 human beings during his term as governor of Texas. And yes, when you have the ability to prevent the death of an individual by a single stroke of your pen, you are DIRECTLY responsible for those deaths.

Oh my.. sounds like "bad karma" to me..

I could be wrong..


rm_the_whole_9 39M
16 posts
12/12/2005 1:55 pm

"The level of a society's civilization can be determined by looking at its prisoners."
--Fyodor Dostoyovsky
(Quoted after spending time in prison)


the1forthenight 33M
55 posts
12/12/2005 2:22 pm

I believe that the death penalty should only be for people who are proven guilty by evidence that is accurate and credible witnesses. The biggest example is some one like the btk killer and tim mcveigh. But even in that aspect people need to learn that revenge is not the answer, cause thats all the death penalty is. Living by the code an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will leave us all blind and toothless. Death will not give those families justice. It will only hurt them more to see a man executed and die right in front of their faces. I saw a man take his last breath on 9-11-05 in front of my apartment building. I never knew the man but even I had some restless nights for about a month because at that moment I realized how precious life is. Plus Tookie is more valuable alive. He is trying to keep kids away from the gang life that he started. Its funny how we can watch a movie and cheer for a character who was the bad guy and he makes a turn for the better. But in real life we scream kill him. KEEP STANLEY "TOOKIE" WILLIAMS ALIVE


MillsShipsGayly 51M

12/12/2005 2:54 pm

Amnesty International

Around 124 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice. On average, in the past decade more than three countries a year have abolished the death penalty for all crimes. Despite international human rights standards, some nations still execute people. Around the world, the death penalty is used as a tool of political repression and a means to forever silence political opponents or eliminate politically "troublesome" individuals.


jakblack36 48M

12/12/2005 5:05 pm

Having a degree in Criminal Justice, I could not agree more with the majority of the statements made thus far.

This country is in great danger BECAUSE of this administration. It is in danger because of these rampant hypocrites.

When will this nation wake the fuck up? The president says he is pro-life and yet kills thousands of our soldiers and people from other countries..who are innocent. Are we only safe when we are in the womb?

How can you be pro-life and support the death penalty? I mean it's like fucking to support abstinence.


TTigerAtty 62M

12/12/2005 5:13 pm

Frogger ...

This is a tough one! I have wrestled with this issue for my entire adult life! I certainly do not have all the answers. I have appreciated your post and the comments of all who have participated! Here, then, is my thinking on the issue ...

As of 6 pm this evening, Stan 'Tookie' Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection and, as you predicted, the Governor of the State of California, has not granted him clemency. I don't know all the facts of the case, as I am sure no one else who has commented does either. I had heard on the radio that Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has been reviewing the facts of the case and the arguments for and against execution since last Friday, when attorneys from both sides briefed him. I would not want to be a Governor in these cases. I trust that Arnold has reviewed the facts and that he is applying the law as it currently exists in the State of California. I also believe that then Gov. George W. Bush did his level best as a human being in his elected executive position to apply the laws of the State of Texas.

Now, whether the laws in our capital punishment states are just and effective laws is the real matter for debate. People who find themselves in positions of executive authority and power in the states where capital punishment is handed down by the courts deserve our well wishes and prayers rather than our condemnation. We, the People, send our elected representatives to State Houses where law is made and changed. If, collectively, we desire changes in our laws, we can eventually have that through the input provide to and pressure placed upon our elected representatives. Apparently, majorities of citizens in capital punishment states still believe that the ultimate punishment of death can be an effective deterrent to violent crime which snuffs out life.

Although I am not privy to all the statistics and studies that have likely been done on this issue, I too, as several above have, question whether capital punishment really does deter someone, who in a fit of passion or for other criminal reasons, takes the life of another human being. I rather doubt that they are thinking logically and reasonably when they murder another person. So, I'm not convinced that capital punishment laws do deter this type of violent crime. I'd like to see the studies and statisics, and I'd like to better understand the arguments for and against. Apparently, reasonable people, our elected representatives, have reached different conclusions in the different states. We are also a capital punishment state here in Missouri.

As for the victims of these type of crimes, those who are murdered, their families and their loved ones, what about them? I noticed that you said nothing about the victims of his actions. At least, I couldn't find anything in your post. But, I'm sure that if you think about it, you do have some feelings and thoughts for those people as well as for Stan 'Tookie' Williams and others like him who receive the death penalty. What should their compensation really be? Is their compensation the satisfaction of "justice" read as "revenge"? Would other compensation help them more, e.g. replacement of the "life value" of their lost family member in some meaningful way (fair formulas for differing situations would need to be developed)? Money to replace income no longer available to the family as the result of the loss of a bread winner? Children's education funding provided for through college? Paid to them by the State, the society which is producing individuals who commit these acts of murder. Now, once we as a people are really on the hook as taxpayers to compensate victims, wouldn't we start to really get creative about how to prevent some of these terrible crimes against our fellow man? Right now, for most Americans, this issue is out of sight and out of mind, unless and until one of these highly publicized cases rises to a level of interest by our national media. By next week this time, and I could be wrong, I believe that the 'Tookie' Williams case will be forgotten ... either way it is ultimately resolved.

the1forthenight said this ... "But even in that aspect, people need to learn that revenge is not the answer, cause thats all the death penalty is. Living by the code an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will leave us all blind and toothless. Death will not give those families justice. It will only hurt them more to see a man executed and die right in front of their faces." I understand that family members of the victims of 'Tookie' Williams actions will watch tonight as the lethal injection is administered. It won't bring their loved ones back and it won't really help them heal. But it will tear at their souls to witness another human being's death." I agree completely!

gent258 said this ... "I agree with you: it is hypocritical to worry about fertilized eggs and then condone state approved murder. Let's just give the bad ones like Williams life in prison with no parole." I have come to agree with this line of reasoning completely as well, although I have, in the past, supported the death penalty. If we do away with the death sentence for the worst and most vile in our society, let us also resolve to do away with the death sentence for the most innocent and unprotected in our society ... the unborn. I am Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice, and since I do not wish to be hypocrital about my conservative stand, Frogger, I must conclude that we should work toward a society where we as human beings are not making these decisions to end life, rather that we consistently and with righteous fervor work toward sustaining and preserving life in EVERYTHING that we do.

Such an approach would, I believe, be humane, would be compassionate, would be just and would be consistent with the moral values of the majority of Americans.

Sorry to go on for so long! As you can see, I too am conflicted over this tough issue. Thanks for opening up the discussion! All the best!


jakblack36 48M

12/12/2005 6:52 pm

    Quoting jakblack36:
    Having a degree in Criminal Justice, I could not agree more with the majority of the statements made thus far.

    This country is in great danger BECAUSE of this administration. It is in danger because of these rampant hypocrites.

    When will this nation wake the fuck up? The president says he is pro-life and yet kills thousands of our soldiers and people from other countries..who are innocent. Are we only safe when we are in the womb?

    How can you be pro-life and support the death penalty? I mean it's like fucking to support abstinence.
Please view my blog jakblack36


frogger1995 39F

12/12/2005 7:43 pm

bullseyetou: well put. Though I would also factor in race.

sillyperv: In every country the poor are going to suffer more than the rich. Don't kick yourselves...at least Canada has universal health.

WildWon1982: Yes, but wouldn't it be nice if the victim (the defendant) was able to choose for himself.

VoodooGuru1: Sorry, I've been lax lately. I just read it and commented. Check it out.

gent258: I'm certain that plenty of them see the hypocracy but choose to ignore it.

JudeL5: For some reason I'm sure that even when Canada had CP we killed far more innocent people than they did.

letigre1974: I'm willing to admit my hypocracy with regard to abortion. I do have trouble with it beyond the middle of the 2nd trimester though. But I just can't get behind the idea of the Morning After pill being murder...there has to be some line drawn.

Am I a hypocrite if I LOVE eating meat as well?

NameIsRace: I would love to hear more...how is there a place for it...please tell me...please.

Sorceror07: I used to be in favor of it as well. BUt then I saw the light.

How many people do you think COULD actually pull the switch (or inject the needle or whatever)? I don't think I could...even when I did beleive in it.

anacortes: I wonder how many innocent lives he's been responsible for since he became president (and no I am not just talking about Iraq)...He probably thinks he's going to his maker with a clean resume.

the_whole_9 : And I haven't even touched on the conditions in our prisons. Yes they get cable but does getting and beaten make up for that?

the1forthenight: I just saw a poll on Cnn.com and over 70% of people agreed that Arnold should not have granted clemency...what a country!

Michael_IG65: For example..Pat Robertson

jakblack36: And yet he actually won on that very irony

TTigerAtty: So many points to address!

1) I think Arnold and George both acted out of pure politics...nothing else. If George really is a Christian, do you think that his heart is telling him to let all those people, vile as they may be, to die. Of course not. But he had a responsibility to his constituents and that superseded his personal beleifs (sort of like he accused John Kerry of in the last election with regard to abortion).

2) I know enough about the stats to know that the death penalty is NOT a deterent. For what ever reason.

3) you make a good point about the victims. I didn't address it because (to be blunt) it wasn't relevant. They are getting their "justice." The man who was convicted of killing their loved one has been in jail for almost 30 years and is now being put to death. I don't think there is a death penalty opponent on earth who does not care about the victim's families. We are working towards a positive solution overall...for everyone. When I say everyone, I mean society in general. What does it say when we can simply kill individuals for revenge?

As for your last point, you are a better person than I for not being a hypocrite.

XTheJesterX: Ohhh I love ya too! I am sorry to hear about your loved one. But if you notice, you are speaking from a very emotional point of view. If we let emotions dictate our laws then our society would be an even bigger mess than it already is. Please don't be offended by my comments.


gnr8nrg 46M

12/12/2005 7:50 pm

I was thinking of blogging about Williams. I am for the death penalty and I'm pro-choice. I think Williams should be spared because I believe in redemption and rehabilitating. However, if I was a family member of one of the victims I'd want to be the one who injects him. Being I have no emotional connection to the case, and all I know is what the T.V. has been feeding me. I'd say let him live and have him speak at local schools in L.A.. I think his life is a better example than his death.


online69n 51F

12/12/2005 8:07 pm

go ahead and hate me
I personally
am all for an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth

kill the killers
cut the thieves hands off
the and cut off their hands too

YES
I am all for
Capitol punishment, I just believe we need alot more of it!
and alot less prisoners..................................so continue to hate me-I am who I am!I belive how I do, It make me
ME!
you have the right to be you
just as I have the right to be me.


singlequietone 67M
232 posts
12/12/2005 10:17 pm

Frogger,
These issues have been kicked back & forth for years. We all have our views on them one way or another, all the above points are well taken, but they just don't reach a solve the problem conclusion, and most likely won't. I can only read and try to better myself on trying to understand them. Luv Ya.


gentile_sadico 51M
1368 posts
12/12/2005 11:01 pm

i would rather think about the rights of the victim and their families first in regards to the death penalty....i have seen inmates on tv admit that the death penalty is an easy way out, they say that sitting on death row or spending 23 hours in lockdown is worse...

all of the detainees at GITMO were captured under the legal rights of the Geneva Convention, the GC also states that enemy combatants can be excecuted but to date i have not heard of a single detainee being excecuted...


danteszippo 52M
3882 posts
12/13/2005 1:57 am

he's done. good.


danteszippo 52M
3882 posts
12/13/2005 2:01 am

go there and take a look at the wonderful "Tookies" work twenty years ago. next the scum will be honored on tshirts and stickers for the stupid masses. good riddance.


mm6342 53M
199 posts
12/13/2005 2:36 am

I do not wish for anyone to have ill will towards me , But in this instance and most all for that matter I am in favor of capital punishment.This man was convicted for deaths in 1979 . He might be responsible for many more , with his ties to gangs he more or less started,over a color for petes sake. After what happened this year in my home state of Floriduh , when that sweet young girl was and burried alive by a monster who lived behind her it reassured me justice will prevail .


hotnympho81 35F

12/13/2005 5:25 am

I'm going to go aganist the grain and say right on with the death penelty. There is a reason that a jury of your peers found you guilty and had you put on death row. Jail should be that jail no luxuries like cable. If you are put in prision for life than that is where you should rot. You've done something wrong and should spend the time paying for what you have done. This may only be my opinion
but its easy to stay out of jail or prision. People make choices everyday right or wrong you have to live with what ever the out come of those choices are.

I have no compassion for people who have commeted crimes and waste court time trying to weasle their way back onto the streets. and murders why even bother with them kill them and get it over. All these people do is spend our money to keep them caged up day in and day out. I would suggest that the bullet to shot them is cheaper but we no longer shot people its too bad.


Anthonyblue 63M

12/13/2005 5:37 am

I have been watching this story closely on American TV and would like to offer my observations, and thoughts.
Firstly, A lot of people who are against the death penalty keep saying that CP is a revenge killing. Where does it say that??? I always thought that CP was a deterrent to make other people think twice before they decide to kill somebody.
Secondly it is obvious from what I can see that American opinion on the case of Stanley Tookie Williams, and also the death penalty is split by what political leanings you have. IE Conservatives for, and Liberals against.
I myself am against the death penalty. For the reasons already stated above. I believe if you are poor you have a much likelier chance of getting CP, and even more likely if you are black, and poor.
If the majority of people are in favour of the death penalty, then if we want democracy too function properly we must abide by the rules of the majority.
In conclusion.
I do not believe in the death penalty, but if we must have it, then Stanley Tookie williams is a deserving case for it.


frogger1995 39F

12/13/2005 5:54 am

gnr8nrg: I agree with you on that theory...he is better alive than dead for what he has to offer. But I am still anti- death penalty. It's a shame that we have to start judging the worth of each life to determine whether they live or die.

online69n: Of course I don't hate you, or anyone else on the other side. I simply disagree. I think a lot of us would be missing limbs or suffer some other ailment if you had your way though...You've NEVER stolen anything??

singlequietone: I shall take that as being pro-capital punishment. YOu can go ahead and vent here...it's an open forum. We need more vociferous believers.

xntrickk: you may be right with regard to the death penalty...For some it is better to get it over with...doesn't mean it's right. AS for the victim's family, no one is denying thier pain but does that mean we should be able to do ANYTHING in order to alieve it. When someone stole my license plate in LA and I had to sit at the DMV for an hour and a half, I wanted to take a baseball bat to the bastard (I still do when I think about it) ...should I be able to do that?

As for GITMO...I beleive this administration has made it VERY clear that they pay no heed to the Geneva COnvention...I'm only asking that they charge them and give them their attorney's...btw, they are not Prisoners of War.

danteszippo: You are entitled to your opinion and no one is defending what he "was convicted" of doing 20 years ago. If they honor him with T-shirts it will be 1) to protest the death penalty in general or 2) to support his honorable actions since then. I think he has contributed more to society than a lot of people who wish to see him dead frankly.

mm6342: if you are going to start charging people for the deaths they have caused indirectly, lets begin with the Commander in Chief. But again, you are entitled to speak it here.

Sporty17: People...it's not as though we are saying Let him go..oh and while your at it give him a nice job, a home, and a vacation in Rio. He will be punished even if there is no capital punishment. But you know what they say about an eye for an eye...

hotnympho81: I agree with you about jail...but if you ask anyone there, even with cable, it is no walk in the park.

Anthonyblue: There is no need to say it...it's obvious. There is no other evidential foundation for it. It doesn't lower the murder rate, it isn't cheaper, and it is disrtibuted (as you state) in a VERY biased manner...it's purely an emotional reaction.

As someone stated earlier...it is not a democracy. Plus if we were to go by what the majority wanted things like segregation and lack of voting rights for women and minorities would still be in existence. Some times natural law has to win.


hotnympho81 35F

12/13/2005 11:56 am

I know that its no walk in the park, I've seen the A&E shows on high security prisions,but none the less why are WE paying for them to watch south park? They lost their rights once they commited a crime. Some of these inmates while yes are locked up live better than some of our law-abiding citizens.


im_your_man77 39M
961 posts
12/13/2005 12:23 pm

Damn Frogger you sure do know how to pick your topics moving from religion to capital punishment, subjects I could argue over for weeks if given the chance. I had intended to add something to this debate yesterday after reading it but I had a 3 hours dash across the country for a 90 minute meeting, by the time I got back it was late, so I apologise for being late.
I don’t know much about the case that was mentioned above, I only know what I’ve seen and heard here and on tv, so I’ll mention another case that I know a little more about.
Kenny Ritchie, a Scottish American has spent 18 years on death row, not surprisingly claiming his innocence. Well they all do don’t they?
A year after breaking up with his ex-girlfriend, he was convicted of murdering her/his daughter after she died in a fire. Originally the mother was charged with neglect before she said that the daughter was in his care while she was at her new boyfriend’s house. The daughter had a history of playing with matches. The town’s Fire Chief was convinced it was simply an accident. However the prosecutor argued that fire accelerants had to have been used, despite the fact that the carpet was thrown out before being properly examined, it was later retrieved at the town’s refuse under a burned out car. The prosecutor offered a plea bargain of 11 years imprisonment but Ritchie refused this saying he was innocent but after the trial he was then convicted with murder and sentenced to death. After a long and arduous legal process which managed to successfully appeal his conviction by arguing that the prosecution had erred in law in the way he was prosecuted and that secondly his legal representation at his original trial was defective. Those arguments were accepted by a Circuit Court, which meant that prosecutors in Ohio had a simple choice - either to free him or to order a retrial. That was in January this year. After months of waiting for their decision and looking likely that he was to be set free the US Supreme Court ruled at the end of last month that the grounds of his appeal to overcome his conviction for arson was not sufficient to be upheld and once again he is facing the possibility of death. This despite that on one of his previous appeals the state offered to quash the death sentence in exchange for a 7 year prison sentence.
I wrote about this case 11 years ago for an English essay, most of the details of the case have slipped my memory, I had no idea back then he would still waiting on death row now.
I don’t know whether Kenny Ritchie is innocent or guilty, in truth it would make no difference to me, I make no bones about it, I find it totally hypocritical that the state can say murder is wrong but then choose to murder in the name of justice. But worse than that I do not understand how the same crime perpetrated by different people can be convicted differently, one may be convicted with manslaughter and get a prison sentence and another charged with murder and put on death row. Often the only difference in the trial is not the evidence but the experience of the defence lawyer. We all know that miscarriages of justice happen all too frequently. It is one thing to imprison an innocent man but to take his life is a travesty that cannot be overturned.
Forget for a minute that I am against the death penalty, on what grounds do you argue that the state is just to kill someone in the name of justice. Do you use it for mass murderers only? Do you use it in all instances of murder? When the accused is black? When the accused is poor and can’t afford to choose their lawyer? How many years should the accused be allowed hope that the decision will be overturned?
As much as I think the death penalty is wrong I find it despicable that someone can be given a death sentence at the age of 19 and then have to spend 18 years for that to be carried out all the while being given hope that it might be overturned and then having it taken away again. Surely if the state has the power to take someone’s life it should also have the powers to have a minimum waiting time, with a proper appeal system within that waiting time. It also shouldn’t be up to politicians to grant and/or deny stays of executions, politicians are human some will be influenced by media coverage or electorate opinion. Politicians are there to make the law or amend the laws but they have no place in the court room in cases that they know nothing about. How can a politician make an educated decision, on a case that has spent weeks, months or years in court, after just a few hours reading?


mm6342 53M
199 posts
12/13/2005 2:28 pm

do not forget he has had three hots and a cot . at our cost


letigre1974 42M

12/13/2005 2:56 pm

some of these posts absolutely amaze me. at some point our prison system stopped being about reform, perhaps the moment jeremy bentham had anything to do with it, but at what point did we as people give up on the reform of others. there is no reason to believe that the department of corrections should choose as their motto, "two wrongs make a right!" if one were to take everything that tookie williams did in his life....would the weight of his actions balance out or not? would yours? i would hope mine would, but i doubt it. no love begets no love.


norprin5 55M

12/13/2005 5:22 pm

letigre, i agree. 'no love begets no love' that's perfect! and every day, everywhere, there's more of it. i don't know enough about the williams case to form an opinion on his guilt. but i don't believe in the death penalty. the only person that Tookie Williams' execution deterred from committing more crimes is Tookie Williams.

King Nor XVIII


frogger1995 39F

12/13/2005 5:25 pm

hotnympho81: And what does that tell you about our society?

im_your_man77: All good points. Nevermind that the justice system in general is fucked up. The subjectivity is just one of many problems with capital punishment.

mm6342: Gee maybe we should all go to jail...it seems so wonderful (sorr if I sound a but snotty here but like I said...its not as though its a walk in the park)

letigre1974: If society is to be better for it punishment should be about three things in order: 1)Deterrence 2) reform 3) punishment.


therocket1962 54M
17 posts
12/13/2005 9:59 pm

Whether you agree of disagree with DP one thing is for sure - Frogger is as smart as she is beautiful - passion in life means passionate SEX!


danteszippo 52M
3882 posts
12/13/2005 11:36 pm

the system was never about reform, it's a JAIL. It's to punish you for crime. it should not include legal services, job and education services, cable, gyms or tailored meals for celltime religion zealots. and limit the damn appeals for death row.


rm_Friendly_dot 48M
20 posts
12/14/2005 1:56 am

Hmmm....It is 'hard' to discuss the seriousness of the issue when the debaters are having nice hard-ons and nice boobs.

Let us see in the most simplistic way. You kill my family member purposely with no case of self defence, you should die too by unnatural cause - definitely. It is either you got the capital penalty or I'll decapacited your head myself - no problem.

What right should we bestow to these killers? What about the rights of the victims - do the killers give a fuck, in any way? Nooooo...

So, as simple as I can get, kill the bastard, make it quick like chopping his head off or something like that...

Now can we discuss the size of your boobs...ain't that heavy...how far can you run with that things swinging and bobbing...hmmmm


redmustang91 57M  
8599 posts
12/14/2005 4:10 am

I oppose the death penalty for many reasons I reviewed in a blog I wrote a while ago. Just a few points. Humans are inherently imperfect and biased in their judgments and make mistakes. After a death penalty yo cannot let the guy out of jail... How many rich white guys or celebs get the death penalty? ZERO. Uhich is unfair to the poor minorities who do.

The death penalty has been banned by most civilized countries. China, Saudi Arabia and Iran still use it. Which countries do we want to emulate?

Check out the Death Penalty Information Center for statistics and instances where ove 150 men on death row were released as innocent!

In California only 12 murderers since 1978 have been executed. Which is unfair in that very few murderers actually get executed, so where is the justice and deterrence? 12 in 27 years?


frogger1995 39F

12/14/2005 5:36 am

norprin5: exactly...Frankly I think anyone who would be deterred from killing by the thought of CP would be just as deterred by the thought of a life sentence.

therocket1962: I'm pretty passionate about sex...especially when I am fired up over a debate.

danteszippo: OK..but what about when they get out...unless you want to keep every and all prisoner from murderers to shop lifters then you have to make them ready to come back into society other wise the will commit the same crimes over and over...and then we all pay.

Friendly_dot: Then you are no better than the killer...do you not see that?

redmustang91: I was thinking that very thing with regard to this case. out of ALL the murders (some multiple murders) that have taken place in CA they choose this one to impose CP on...it's like a slap in the face to civilized people the world over.


hotnympho81 35F

12/14/2005 5:47 pm

I know that our society is very messed up. I never voted for Bush and never will I'm sooooooo very happy that the man CAN never run for office again. But that is a whole other story he isnt the only reason that our country is the way it is. The pompous windbags in office are to blame as well. To stuck on the small things to work on the real issues that are truly important. I understand checks and balances but to me they seem to cause more of a problem but without it someone like Bush would have absolute power SCARY. So where does it get us at the end of the day?? No where paying taxes and bitching about gas prices and talking about if someone like "Tookie" deserved to die.


The_Wraith_1969 47M

12/15/2005 5:25 am

What ever happened to the goo old firing squad? Noose? Or Guillotine? Oh man, does America suck at Justice!


rm_sbaby44boy 39M

12/16/2005 11:42 am

Let me start of by saying that to many of my blk nubian kings are being killed that are truly innocent. This brother I must say will go to the next spirtual plane of life or to heaven as most think. I am sad that he was murdered but also happy that he will be free final eventhough its through death. He is a reason to see that in order to change u got want to change yourself. People must realize that u cant change the world u can only change yourself. And he changed in prison. People will say that he started the crip gang is the reason for his death but truth be told gangs have been around since the beginning of times and will stay around the worst gangs are the police..fbi..cia.etc.. all who have targeted, set up and had blk people killed. On only has to look to seet that the goverment is just a game to keep the 90% who belive blinded by there bullshit. There will be more Tookies who will die and that is the sadest part of all. The point is that if u are a blk male do your best to avoid the true gangs of this word b/c once u are in the system u could die by that system. On that note I say peace to all and be easy......


Bikertrash685 56M

12/16/2005 10:35 pm

As a poor old dumb Canuck I have never been able to figure out how one country can point a finger at another and say "You kill your people by burying them neck deep in sand and then throw rocks at them." while they lock people up for years only to inject them with leathal drugs or zap them with electricity. Government sanctioned murder is still murder.
Want proof of why capital punishment is wrong? Two Words... DAVID MILGARD.
He spent 20 years in prison only to be released when the system found out that he was inocent!!!! Kind of hard to release a dead man.
Unfortunately we in The Great White North can't even make a "life" sentence last for life. Usually the screaming MeMe's get the system to let the offender out after a shortened period.
If the legal system was flawless or faultless capital punishment would be an arguable case but nothing in life is perfect, flawless or faultless, not even we humans.
Just the ramblings of an old fart biker.


rm_JUSTsex4me 36F
185 posts
12/17/2005 3:37 pm

I'm actually a little torn between supporting and not supporting the death penalty. I feel that if there is evidence that shows and can prove 100% that a person committed a crime, like murder, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, which may be death in some instances. This is regardless of what they contributed to the community during their stay in prison before receiving their fair and just punishment. So, in the case of Tookie, yes he should have received the death penalty because he did take lives and influenced millions more to take lives. Yes, he did make a change while in prison, but was it a true change? That's not for me to judge but it could have all be an act out of desperation to save his own life.

On the other hand, if there is any doubt that a person committed their crimes, then no, they should not be sentenced to death. There is one case in particular, the West Memphis Three, which I studied extensively while in college. There is not enough evidence to have sentenced one of those boys to death. The only evidence were black t-shirts, heavy metal CD's, bad reputations as being out-casts, and a clearly coerced confession. I have been through all case/police files several times and feel confident that they did not commit the crimes they have been sentenced for. So, in that case and ones like it, no, we should never sentence a person to death under those grounds.


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