To strike the buttocks as a means of punishment!  

Philosophy_N_Sex 49M/47F
1147 posts
9/27/2005 12:05 pm

Last Read:
3/5/2006 9:27 pm

To strike the buttocks as a means of punishment!

Song of the day: Controversy ‒Prince, or formerly known as prince, or who ever the hell he is!

I am an anti spanking parent. This topic brings some heated debate for some reason? I have never seen it as an effective means of discipline. Science has never seen it as an effective means of child rearing. Here are some of my arguments about spanking and why it is wrong, ineffective, and ultimately creates the very problems parents want to avoid.

1-Spanking does not teach proactive ways to stay out of trouble!
Spanking shows how might is right, and bully behavior. Spanking has a bigger stronger parent grab, restrain, and strike a child. This is the example being set with spanking is bigger hits the smaller. Spanking also can cause lying. Say a child broke something, then a parent storms in, spanking instrument in hand, and asks the child “Did you do this?” The child will lie, not out of bad personal character, but for self-preservation. Spanking does not allow for creative or situational learning experiences. The parent just starts wailing away on the child, not thinking, not guiding, or giving consideration to other punishment that would be more constructive.

Restitution is a more appropriate lesson because it will be used as adult, and places child in the role of the one he/she injured. Spanking is only good for deterring further spanking and the child’s own suffering, meaning the child only learns how to avoid spanking, not learn the life lesson he/she should learn. Restitution-based discipline places the child in the situation of the person harmed, and can lead to a deeper lesson. Spanking is coercion not problem solving, and only short-term solution. Teaching children to make choices is the job of the parents. Studies have shown that most of the prison populations were spanked as children. Prison inmates have to make parents proud! Children only think if I do this I might get spanked, how do I not get spanked. They see no wider version of the world, or beyond themselves. Spanking is parenthood “dummed down!”

2-Spanking is not the only means of Discipline
Discipline modifies behavior by consequence for action does not mean torture, you can have discipline with out torture. I really enjoy adults who say "kids need more discipline, so lets get back to spanking" spanking is not discipline it is torture. Discipline is making the right choice, being considerate of others, and delaying gratification. Spanking does not tell why we should behave in a positive way, or even show and example of positive behavior. Discipline is making the right choice, how can child be disciplined when they do not understand the right choices.

Pro spanking camp says "spank with out passion or emotion," I have read this on a prospanking web site focus on the family. However when angry at a child for a misdeed you will be emotional, since consequences for actions must be immediate when disciplining a child for misdeeds, a dispassionate spanking is not possible, therefore spanking has a paradox. You are angry at the misdeed but if you go cool off, and come back later to discipline the child, the child will not know why he/she is being punished.

Making the child “think twice next time” is the whole point of discipline. Yes as parents we do “teach them a lesson they won’t forget.” But is violence the lesson you want them to never forget? Let’s assume a child breaks a window, then losing privileges, doing extra work to pay for the damage, and writing a well written, sincere apology, can be far more uncomfortable than spanking, and sends the correct message. The message " I did wrong, I must make it right," which is what a well-balanced person does.

3-Spanking is torture
Yes it is torture, you are restraining and beating someone right? What happened to prisoners of war? They were restrained and beaten aka TORTURE! Yes it is too the same thing! Can I put you over my knee and slap your buttocks? No, I would be arrested! Why is it right for you to spank? Because you have the power to do it and get away with it? You are a bully not a parent! Spanking in the dictionary says, “To slap on the buttocks with a flat object or with the open hand, as for punishment.” Hitting is defined as “beating, slapping, striking”, is all semantics, another word for the same action. That action is the beating and torture of a child.

Saying I hurt you because I love you is another dysfunctional paradox brought on by spanking. How can this not confuse the child? Does not the wife beater do the same thing to his wife “ I love you, why do you make me hurt you?” What do we tell a woman in an abusive relationship? We tell her to get the hell out of there and press charges. You care for the child when sick, and do other things of love for the child, and then you turn around and hit them? Please consider the message you send doing this.

I really love when the pro spanking camp replaces the word spanking with discipline. Replace spanking with the word torture, as is more appropriate, and then tell me why you spank. “ I torture because I love my children?” Now please tell me the logic in that statement.

A lack of discipline does not mean a lack of spanking. All spanking does is destroy trust, the child is never sure if you are going to hold or hit. Even when you do not have an angry face, the child knows you are capable of hitting them, and will be on guard anytime they are with you. That is not respect it is fear. When the child cannot trust you as a parent, how or why will s/he come to you with an important discussion such as sex, drugs, or to report if someone is abusing them? How can they understand abuse, when love is associated with pain?

My favorite silly statement is when a parent will insist child stop crying or get more spanking, another paradox that teaches children nothing but hate for parent. Stop crying because you are hurt or I will hurt you more. My gosh! What a brilliant idea! I should hook up an electric shock device and zap you each time you cry out, why not? It is as logical as your parenting.

4-Arguments against pro spanking assertions
Pro spanking arguments are often quoted from bible, which opposite passages can be found i.e. “ an eye for an eye vs. turn the other cheek.” Using the bible as your permission to abuse children cannot and will not hold up because I can and will find the opposite statement for every statement made in favor of spanking.

Many adults say I was spanked as a child and I turn out ok. Well I am glad you are not a dangerous psychopath. However can you honestly say when you were a child you looked forward to getting spanked? Did you deserve torture? You say life is full of painful lessons. Bumps and bruises are part of growing up? True, but did you need your loved ones adding to the bruises? As a child were you not mentally capable of being guided and reasoned with, with out a beating?

5-Final thoughts and weird coincidences about spanking
Did you realize schools have right to spank with paddles or belts, but have zero tolerance on weapons use? This is another dumbass paradox to confuse kids trying to grow up. No weapons except for the ones we use for your own good. Teach children how to make choices, not might makes right, and the adversarial relationship between adults and young people might vanish.

Second weird coincidence is schools have the right to bend a young person over in “the position” for spanking but have zero tolerance policies on sexual harassment. Go figure that one out. Saying bend over and put that ass out to a 14 year old will put me on the sex offender registry real quick, unless I am a school official.

Those are nice message from our “educational experts” that spend 10 or more hours a day with our kids!

Schoolteachers and adult entertainers are the only professions that use spanking as part of their jobs. Hahaha, that is too funny! Good old Mrs. Jones the teacher gets paid less than Wanda the Whip, but uses the paddle to earn a living as well. I always laugh at this little tragic truth.

I cannot see spanking for anything but what it is and it is torture. The only reason pro spanking parents get so mad at me and my arguments are that they cannot make a strong or intelligent statement. Pro spankers only understand hitting and inflicting pain as education, not understanding. They get angry because they must realize the error of their ways on some level they are unable to express, but will not change, perhaps it is a way to regain some of the power they felt they lost from being spanked as children. Yes, I am comparing the mentality of spanker to those of cavemen.

I choose to empower my kids with consequence of choice not torture. I cannot condone torture as a means of raising children! Anyone who spanks my child is guilty of assault, and will be treated as such! Yes Boise school district has a “no spank” policy!


634694u 46M

9/27/2005 12:49 pm

I would love to fully reply to this blog but would be only wasting our time. I'm sure there are many other things you love to instruct people to do as well. I've been tortured-you have not. Don't even think for a minute that they are one in the same. DS91 ravensandmanflyover. Reality blows by you like the wind.


rm_FreeLove999 46F
16127 posts
9/27/2005 1:09 pm

i concur completely. having been abused quite violently myself i am a virulent anti-smacker -- i have noticed that my daughter is best encouraged to good behaviour not forced to it; i have also noticed that she mimics those around her. if my husband and i behave badly towards each other, she behaves badly too. when we are kind and loving (as we always try to be, but sometimes don't succeed) then she is kind and loving as well. ok, she still is a typical demanding two year old in many ways, but a raised eyebrow and firm tone of voice have proved quite enough in most circumstances (and i always provide reasons for things even though she doesn't always understand what i am saying because her language skills are still developing -- i think it is a good habit to get into, so she knows i am reasonable and she can reason with me).

i actually can't imagine how people can smack a child. it is clear that any adult has more physical control than a child, and it is bound to terrify! i hope my daughter grows up without the kinds of fears i am still trying to shake after all these years.



[blog freelove999]


two41and14two 55M/49F

9/27/2005 2:09 pm

the book i read that helped me the most as a parent was a book about training dogs. it said the time to reprimand a dog is before it does something wrong. the book gave the example of a dog eating food off of a counter. say "no" when the dog is looking at the food--- when he is thinking about eating it. (i guess punishing him for something he hasn't done.... but that u can tell he is thinking about doing?????) (and yes, words are a punishment) this book also said that once the deed has been done to pretend like it didn't happen. in the above example, if the dog ate the food off the counter, he already got the reward of food and then if you yell at him then you are just a bad guy. --- i guess spanking is kinda like punishing a dog after he gets to eat the food... it just makes you the bad guy.

also... can't help to throw this in... listened to a talk radio show a while back about this verse "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it". this verse is often used as a reason to punish children for their behaviors.. but taken back to the original translation, it should actually read more like this.. "when a child is young provide for him an environment of love where he can grow and learn to use his talents as God intended for him to use them, then, when the child is older he will continue to grow (follow the path) (use his talents)as God intended him to.

it is difficult to encourage a child to be what God wants him to be... not what we, as parents, want our child to be.

all that said... my baby girl is 17. i miss having a little girl. but she is a good, strong, healthy, and i wish just a little bit happier. despite my efforts otherwise, and despite my sometimes poor example i set, she has a 3.97 gpa, is involved in the community, her school, sports, has friends, as far as i can tell doesn't drink and isn't promiscuous, works, etc... she is taking classes at the community college this fall, but is still involved in her hs.. this being her senior yr. she rebels by being good at math, which i never was, lol

didn't mean to go on for so long... just reminising a little i guess. no more back to school shopping, no more reading bedtime stories, no more happy meals just for the toy, no more giggles at silly games, no more sing-a-longs in the car, no more going to toys-r-us for christmas shopping, no more hanging out with other moms at the park while the kids play on the playground, no more fairs/ petting zoos/ etc, no more little girl to climb on my lap and watch tv, no more useless craft projects, and i don't get to do her hair anymore... and i could kick ass at those little frechbraids, etc.
but it is wonderful that she is a beautiful, strong, self-reliant young woman.

hope you are enjoying every minute with those kids...


rm_jayR63 59F
1884 posts
9/27/2005 5:54 pm

And I thought my mother was the author of the "I'll give you something to cry about" line.
If one of us did something wrong and the other tried to cover it up, we'd both get the belt.
None of us chose to reproduce.
I wonder why?


digdug41 49M

9/27/2005 10:51 pm

I agree with you I dont hit my kids either I try to explain to them that they cannot do certain things and why and if it persists because I've gotta be repetitous about it as all parents do or I just take away priviledges until they get the picture there are times
I must admit when I want to throw my thirteen yr old through a wall because he has to have the last word and refuses to listen but time with out video games usually shuts him up the other two are a little better at listening,dam teenagers

roaming the cyber streets of blogland


rm_philonymph 38M
162 posts
9/28/2005 9:40 am

If parents could be given an "instruction manual" for their kids, this would be one of the first chapters. The violence in this world will dramatically decrease when the number of parents who give up the ways of torture and embrace the path of wisdom reaches that elusive critical mass....

I do feel we're getting close!!!


FunandFrisky79 41M/37F

9/28/2005 5:26 pm

P&S- I'm anti-spanking as well. I was rarely ever spanked as a child and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I turned out okay.

Instead, my parents sat me down & explained why what I did was unacceptable. And, they would punish me in other non-physical ways i.e. take away my phone priviledges, ground me from going out, etc. Personally, I think that is much more effective. Besides, I hated seeing my parents disappointed more than I disliked being yelled at & spanked.

Like you said, physical punishment sets a bad example. It only tells your children you are bigger & stronger, and that is why they must obey you. Not because you are the parent & they are the child. And, they are less apt to "fess up" when they do something wrong.

As you know, I don't have any children. But, when I do, I can only hope to be half as good a parent to my children as my parents were to me.

]


PrincessKarma 43F
6188 posts
9/29/2005 3:04 am

I agree on the no-spanking-kids policy, there are better and "worse" punishments than a spanking (this from a spankee who "turned out all right", lol). But.... how about spanking an adult?

Yes, I'm a perv, hee hee hee!

Off to catching up on your blog...

The Big Bang was the mother of all orgasms.PrincessKarma


Philosophy_N_Sex 49M/47F

9/29/2005 12:09 pm

634....:
Thank you for you well written and logical arguement, your reasoned discorse is flawless. (that is sarcasm by the way) There is great wisdom in a personal attack on someone you do not know. Disagreement is fine, when it actually makes sense! SO go smack your kids in your happy NAZI torture camp you call home, while I return to reality.

Freelove:
Yes I can understand how you feel. I hope to reverse some of the ignorant things my parents have done as well.

Two4:
Well written! Funny how young children and dog training are simular! We too try to cut off any bad behavior before it happens.
Have to agree with your observation that you "play as you practice" so as your kids are raised the odds are they will live that way on their own! Excellent reply!

Hey JayR:
I too considered not bringing kids into the world, but I hope they will forgive me. Got to love parents who hit because they can do it and get away with it..

DigDug:
Ye sthere are always better ways to get your kids attention. You learn to bloke physical pain, and just hate the person hurting you. But an up front contract of you do this I do that with you kids works well. No homework done means no video games, good trade!

Philo:
Yes we are learning more and more about child raising. I hope we get better and better at it, and hopefully have a better future. Those who beat their children, are beating their futures

Frisky!
Woo hoo HELLLO there ! my version of spanking you is much much different

but seriously

Wifey, me, and many of my friends were also spanked and then some as kids. I think we turned out ok as well. We all will have "issues" that is life. but only a dumbass! would think that adding to a childs issues with abuse is good parenting.

Princess:
I would never stand in the way in what consenting adult do with each other .. Yes I would think no punishment is bad, it must be balanced so it all works out in the end.
A perv? on this site?? never grin


rm_luke69iner 48M
3275 posts
9/30/2005 2:27 pm

great post

to be honest i probably would have used spanking and military discipline if i had kids

this is the best writing i've seen on this subject ... well done

i believe the world is a violent place but i guess that is a lesson a childs peers will introduce them to ... it shouldn't be their parents


S'io credesse che mia risposta fosse
A persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
Questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
Ma perciocche giammai di questo fondo
Non torno vivo alcun, s'i'odo il vero,
Senza tema d'infamia ti rispondo
.
~Dante~


Philosophy_N_Sex 49M/47F

9/30/2005 9:32 pm

Hi there Luke

THanks, it was a topic I used in psychology class, so I do have a touch of science with me.

have a great weekend!


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