DELETE THIS !!!  

CravesChocolate 56M
81 posts
8/2/2006 6:03 pm

Last Read:
8/20/2006 6:14 pm

DELETE THIS !!!

To those of you that are following the issues involved in the insanity that is discussed in length in my first post: "My Broke Back Motivation" it talks about the group that I was in, why I left, and how that was the motivation for starting this blog. I mentioned that before I left I took the time to leave a farewell post under the heading: "Thanks For The Memories". That post was up for a very short period before being deleted by the moderator of the group. I am posting it here so that those friends that did not get a chance to see it can read it for themselves and receive the message as intended. If you care enough to read it then maybe you can come up with some explanation as to why it was deleted. I still don't get it!


Dear friends:

I have intentionally laid low and not posted anything here since my last post of 7/28. I wanted to see how all the dust would settle out and allow all involved to go on record as to their thoughts and feelings about this conflict. I believe the time has now come for me to weigh back in with my thoughts in what is regrettably to be my farewell post. And while I assume that my comments and opinions will again be characterized as “climbing up on my soap box” and “preaching”, I beg your indulgence in allowing me this one last opportunity to address you here. I understand that as always, I am under the usual threat of the lethal “RED BUTTON” but I promise in advance that there is no venom or hostility in these words.

After a rocky start between me and Rlips, I became a member of this group just three months following the loss of my mother. This has been a surprisingly wonderful adventure for me and has done much to help me deal with that difficult transition period. In the process, I have come to know many of you and have really enjoyed the love, support, sharing, laughter, debate, and thought provoking encounters that I have discovered here. In the last four months that I have been part of this group, I really feel as though I have come to know many of you.

This is amazing to me since I have never met any of you and feel that there is virtually no chance of that ever happening. I really adore all of the ebony goddesses that I have made friends with here. This is not surprising since I am obsessed with black women naturally. What has surprised me is how much I have learned to appreciate the various men of this group, including NTM, Mr. Bull, Roughcut, and others who have displayed remarkable intelligence, sensitivity, and yes, humor.

Now for the difficult part which is of course explaining my take on this recent conflict and the issues that lead me to the conclusion that it is time for me to move on. This too is not an attack on anyone and I mean no offense. But I do feel that there is certain individuals that I want to address directly. So here it goes!

Roughcut- I admit that it has taken some time to get to know you and appreciate your style. But that is only because of my own prejudice regarding cowboys which stems from the fact that I was always on the side of the Indians. LOL But I too grew up in the country and share many of those same values. But in following your post, I have really come to learn to appreciate that you are a really great guy and I enjoy your humor as well. I know that you feel some responsibility for starting this situation because you started the thread. But I really don’t think that there is any reason for you to feel bad or take any responsibility. I consider myself to be quite gay friendly and yet when this movie came out it never had any appeal to me. Your comments I found rather funny and in keeping with how I thought I would feel if I had seen the movie.

Steve- I have already said my piece on your one comment that I took exception to and I feel no need to repeat my lengthy diatribe. I do want to repeat one sentence here for emphasis and that is: “Steve-I think you have a great sense of humor and I was getting around to posting a comment to that effect, when you went and posted this comment” I stand by that sentence as much as anything else I said. You seem to be a regular guy and as a person who also uses comedy to get through life, I am always hunting for an opportunity to laugh. If that one comedy comment of yours would have been directed at a documentary on Bush, Chenney, Ann Coulter, or someone like that, I would still be laughing my ass off. I want to commend you and give you great props for your apology and for the courage to come back to the group. It is obvious that you are wanted here, especially by the moderator. To the extent that any of your apology was meant for me, I totally accept it and I extend my deepest apology for any offense your way. From my perspective between you and I consider this “fence mended” no hard feelings.

I do however have a couple of points about your apology that leads into my explanation for saying farewell to the group. The first is that you state that you have the “right to disagree with the lifestyle of gay men”. I think that this both reveals your real feelings toward gays and underlines that your comment was in fact gay bashing disguised as comedy. You do have a right to have those feelings. As an American, you have the right to express those feelings.

I am a big supporter of the ACLU and I support their argument in defending the 1st Amendment right of Nazis to march in Jewish neighborhoods or the KKK to march in black neighborhoods. On the other hand, if a bunch of black men rise up and beat the shit out of those idiots, I also feel that this is what they deserve and so be it.

But in this group, the normal rules of the Constitution and free speech do NOT apply. In fact there is a whole other set of rules and they are not democratically established. They are the sole rules of the moderator and she has never been shy on letting anybody know about it. She not only sets the rules but she interprets them and she enforces them. In her own words: “if anyone doesn't agree with that TOUGH SHIT”

But the stated rules say: -Anyone found to be offensive to any member in this group will be banned with out warning or explanation.
It also says that: IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ANOTHER'S POINT OF VIEW by all means let them know

My problem is that the rules are, in my opinion, not always applied in a manner that is consistent or in a way that I can agree with. Furthermore, these rules are becoming too restrictive of my free speech. The problem that has brought me to this fork in the road is that I feel that the “rule maker” has become tolerant of intolerance and then intolerant of those that would speak out about comments that are offensive.

In this situation, Steve’s comments were offensive to many of us. But instead of speaking out on the offensive comments, the rule maker chose to attack those that did. We were told to lighten up. Why were we not allowed, as the rules state, to express our point of view about the comment that was offending us. I was told that I was “preaching, on my soap box, needing to lighten up”. When my comments addressed some of my personal history on dealing with this kind of humor, my opinions were dismissed and diminished with the response of “your story is just that your story”. Those of us who were offended by the comment were told: “some people have a chip on their shoulder”.

My comments in this group have never been aimed at offending anyone or starting any shit. I am an extremely political animal in every aspect of my life. And yet out of respect for “THE RULES”, I have curbed any and all political comments. Now, I am under attack for my opinions in standing up for what I believe in. This leaves me with nothing meaningful left to say. Suddenly, I no longer feel at home here. It saddens me greatly but I feel that I have no option left but to stand up for my beliefs and bid you all a fond farewell. Since I have not yet found a group that can replace what I have experienced here, I think it is time for me to start a blog. I want to invite any and all of you to drop by, post a comment, say hello. You are even welcome to take me on for anything you wish to respond about this post. And hey, no rules!

Lastly, I want to take this opportunity to offer my deepest apology to anyone that I have offended, in any way, with any of my comments in this group. I wish everyone in this group all the very best. My sincere blessings upon you all. I will miss you guys and the time I have spent with you all!

Lots of love, peace, and happiness to you all,
Craves

Ps. To Steve - I am so very NOT offended at your comment that:
“I guess craves is happy he's not the only one that can write a novel”
Touché, I just made your point for you!



moonlightphoenix 45F
6508 posts
8/3/2006 10:30 am

“right to disagree with the lifestyle of gay men”.

How is "the gay lifestyle" any more of a lifestyle han a "heterosexual lifestyle"????
And what the hell does it matter to you what two other people do with or to each other in the privacy of their own homes?? And why is it acceptable to shove the heterosexual agenda down the throat of the homosexuals, but it's a big fucking deal to include footage of two same sex adults kissing in a film or tv show?? Or people feel compelled to scowl or show their displeasure at something as simple as two men holding hands. And yet, heterosexual behaviour is constantly displayed in increasingly sexually explicit depictions to younger and younger audiences???

Ignorance abounds.

An apology offered begrudgingly and insincerely is not an apology. And I am certainly not obligated to accept just in the effort of making peace.

I felt absolutely disregarded and chastised in this matter, and I will not be a part of anything that supports hatred and ignorance against others
.


CravesChocolate 56M
88 posts
8/3/2006 4:28 pm

“right to disagree with the lifestyle of gay men”

This is just so wrong on so many levels isn't it? Anymore, to be under 50 and have that attitude is so dark ages. It's as if you have been on another planet, when for the one millionth time that a gay person has said that they were born gay and it wasn't a "lifestyle choice". Or you just have the arrogance to not believe them because you as a straignt person must know better than the gay community.

It also ties in with the myth that you can be converted/influenced into being gay or reformed out of that "lifestyle"! I hate this one the most because of all the thousands of children that need homes but can not be adopted by gay people because they may be influenced into the "lifestyle". Give me a fucking break!

Then there is the aspect that somehow he is on the review and approval committee. Who is it that went through the straight "approval" committee. Like anybody needs anybody else's approval.

Back in the sixties and seventies, there were those that did not "approve" of some of us that liked having our hair long. In the group that he was posting on, it is about black women and white men. Look at all the countless bigots that don't "approve" of that "lifestyle"! And I would argue that, that isn't a lifestyle either.

It is you having the God given RIGHT to be with whom ever you choose to be and NOBODY has the RIGHT to approve or disapprove. Opinions are like assholes and belly buttons - Everyone has one but when it comes to whom I chose to be with, I don't need or want anyone's opinion except the object of my affection.


moonlightphoenix 45F
6508 posts
8/3/2006 7:46 pm

Once again....you said it better than I. I was going to add the part about him being smug and pompous enough to feel he had the right to agree or disagree with someone else's life. I'm sure if we asked around, we could find plenty of people who would disagree with the way he lives his life.

This whole mindset just sets my teeth on edge. ESPECIALLY here, on AdultFriendFinder.

UGH.


CravesChocolate 56M
88 posts
8/5/2006 11:53 am

An update for you! The last I checked, he has once again quit the group. No matter where you stand on all of this, it is a sad turn of events for what used to be a great group. My hope is that it was a learning experience for everyone involved and that we have all grown from it.

I know that I have!


nontoxicmale 64M

8/7/2006 10:37 am

I have known people who are homophobes and I've known people who are homosexual. All just people. None who were consummate evil. What bothers me most of all is that so many people take intractable stands and refuse to help in engendering attitude changes.

There was a time in my life that I was not so much a homophobe as just ignorant. I laughed at jokes that were demeaning to one group or another. I simply didn't understand the bigotry from which those jokes were born. Over time I learned and began to understand. I imagine that had I been attacked for my laughter and/or my ignorance I might have moved in a different way and very possibly become more entrenched in bigoted thinking. Instead, people who knew better than I talked to me and educated me in the realities of human relations. They did so in a kind and thoughtful manner rather than in anger and self righteousness.

Any human being will close down to learning and growing if they feel that they are being dishonored whether or not the dishonoring is deserved. We all have ideals and beliefs to which we hold firmly and want to defend. But if our desire is to turn someone around from the way that they think, we undermine ourselves in closing down their spirit. If I scream and yell at ou for what I perceive as a grave error on your part, I cannot expect that you will respond favorably.

So the question then begs to be asked, is your desire to change the way some people think or is it to hold yourself up as being a more valuable and acceptable person?


CravesChocolate 56M
88 posts
8/7/2006 3:01 pm

    Quoting nontoxicmale:
    I have known people who are homophobes and I've known people who are homosexual. All just people. None who were consummate evil. What bothers me most of all is that so many people take intractable stands and refuse to help in engendering attitude changes.

    There was a time in my life that I was not so much a homophobe as just ignorant. I laughed at jokes that were demeaning to one group or another. I simply didn't understand the bigotry from which those jokes were born. Over time I learned and began to understand. I imagine that had I been attacked for my laughter and/or my ignorance I might have moved in a different way and very possibly become more entrenched in bigoted thinking. Instead, people who knew better than I talked to me and educated me in the realities of human relations. They did so in a kind and thoughtful manner rather than in anger and self righteousness.

    Any human being will close down to learning and growing if they feel that they are being dishonored whether or not the dishonoring is deserved. We all have ideals and beliefs to which we hold firmly and want to defend. But if our desire is to turn someone around from the way that they think, we undermine ourselves in closing down their spirit. If I scream and yell at ou for what I perceive as a grave error on your part, I cannot expect that you will respond favorably.

    So the question then begs to be asked, is your desire to change the way some people think or is it to hold yourself up as being a more valuable and acceptable person?
It seems like often homophobes and homohaters are confused with each other even if there is an overlap. I see a lot of men that are homophobes in that they are always so careful to make sure nobody confuses them with being gay. It is an insecurity about their manhood that I am glad I don't share. So many men are so overly anxious to always clarify that they aren't gay.

I have often been mistaken for being gay for a lot of reasons. At age 30, I took a class in jazz dancing and eventually performed in a jazz performance that was set to the music of Grace Jones "Slave to the Music" album. I still think that was funny. I love to cook and consider myself to be a gourmet cook. I don't enjoy competitive sports of any kind. I enjoy getting a good massage and pride myself in giving the best sensual massage that any of my subjects have ever had. For many years, I was the owner and operator of a garden wedding facility and as part of that I ended up learning how to do flower arranging and wedding coordination. Hell I still don't know any other non-gay men that do those last two items. I could go on with more examples but I'm sure you get the idea.

But in the past when someone tries to peg me with the gay label, frankly I could care less. I love pussy! I love breast! I couldn't imagine being with a man. So what do I care what others think or say.


As far as your testimonial of your journey of awakening that raised your consciousness about what is a bigot and not wanting to engage in bigoted behavior, it is really a generic story of anyone who has raised their consciousness about these things. It is that same story that separates us from those that remain bigots. As we grow and learn, we make decisions about our values and consciousness. Either you get it, change, and grow, or you remain stuck in your lower, shallow, bigoted, consciousness.

As per the question of turning someone around about their beliefs, this is something I don't believe in. I feel strongly that you must set your own example, speak your truth, make your statement, and then move on. Sometimes that can be enough to open somebody's eyes. Usually the blind and ignorant will stay that way. For me it is always about standing up for what you believe and never about trying to change some ones mind.


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