Rebuttal - Alarmist vs. Realist  

ByteChaser2 52M
2834 posts
9/12/2005 7:19 am

Last Read:
3/5/2006 9:27 pm

Rebuttal - Alarmist vs. Realist

Yesterday papyrina posted, what I'm sure she intended to be a bit of comic relief in her post [post 89883]. This of course sparked off a fair amount of good natured banter and some, shall we say, less than good natured debate about our presidents policy and - ?itinerary?...

So in the interest of not cluttering Papy's blog unnecessarily, lets just bring the debate here.

Rules of the road:

1. "Just the facts ma'am." Make whatever statements you like however, back them up with evidence.

2. Opinions are like...(yeah, and we all have one...) When making statements, preface your *Opinions* as such. Opinions aren't facts. They are important but, as in any debate, facts rule... Opinions don't.

3. Lets keep the bashing to a minimum. I will not brook personal assaults - against ANYONE. So keep the personal attacks to yourself. I won't hesitate to delete an abusive post.

4. Speak your mind. So long as we all follow the first 3 rules of the road, please feel free to speak your mind.

So have at it...

ByteChaser2 52M

9/12/2005 8:17 am

From Payrina's original post:

Sky news in Britain made a slight OOPs during a broadcast(or was it a mistake
The statement below was the heading under a picure of Bush during the news Eeee i'm wicked .The picture is shown but sorry its small lol

"Bush: One of the Worst Disasters to Hit the U.S."

While that statement has far wider implication, it was made relative to the damage caused by Katrina and I suspect it also has implied commentary on the 9-11 anniversary as well.

I'd made a reply that I thought that one (Bush) had nothing to do with the other (Katrina). GangBangCple and GB_Cple (I can assume these are the same person/people?) made a rebuttal statement to mine that has some superficial merit. Basically that it took the Federal Government 5 days to bring troops into the state to restore order and that (Bush) was somehow delinquent in his duties by, and I quote: "...flying to sunny california to meet his rich friends was more important." and later, "and waiting 5 days to send troops in , only for them to arrive , rifles at the ready , to shoot , hungry ppl,"

Ok, I'll address this first before moving on to the environmental issues...

I have no clue what the Presidents itinerary is or how events are prioritized but being in a position of leadership myself, I can sympathize with his scheduling plight. Sometimes a leader must shuffle and prioritize events such that issues are addressed in some semblance of order. And lets face it... Was the airport in any condition to land Air force One? I suspect not...

Having served in the military, I can tell you 2 things that may illuminate the apparent delay in sending Federal troops in.

First... Federal troops are trained and equipped to conduct air, sea and ground combat. NOT to act in a law enforcement or disaster relief capacity. Back pedaling on their standard combat training to adjust their mission (disaster relief and law enforcement) takes some time. And money. And specialized equipment. None of which they posses in significant quantities.

Second. It takes time to equip and mobilize any military organization. a 5 day mobilization, in my opinion, is bordering on fantastic. Considering that units deploy with what is referred to as a "Combat Load"; Everything necessary to conduct sustained operations for from 15 to 30 days, is a shining example of our military's ability to "shoot, move and communicate" at the drop of a hat. I'm frankly amazed that Federal troops pulled that off so well considering the relative pittance of a budget they have to work with.

One more thing before I move on to environmental issues...

Posse Comitatus Act. I direct your attention to Title 10, US Code chapter 263, Section 15 which forbids the use of Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corps "as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress;" That is what the National Guard is for. Where, exactly were they when the liberals were foaming at the mouth. And how long do you suppose it'll take before the Democrats (read anti-Republican party) start calling for Bush's head for using Federal Troops on US soil without an act of Congress?

Not long I suspect...

And as for shooting hungry people... Ummm Sure they're hungry. Takes a lot of energy to loot and pillage and fire on rescue helicopters... Just my opinion here but the deaths of the lawless (even at the hands of Federal troops trying to re-establish law and order) holds no significant amount of grief in me... A word to the wise: It might be considerably more healthy if you didn't shoot at troops armed with automatic weapons...

ByteChaser2 52M

9/12/2005 8:49 am

And... The Kyoto Protocol.

There has actually been news reports bashing the seated administration, blaming the President SPECIFICALLY for the damage caused by Katrina. Calling on the Presidents refusal to sign the protocol as the cause of Katrina's damage.

So first lets talk about the Kyoto Protocol. According to researchers at the University of Calgary, in cooperation with the Friends of Science Society, the science underlying the protocol is "seriously flawed". This wasn't a statement made by American Industry moguls... It was a recognized and highly credible institution of higher learning and a respected and independant society of scientist.

And from the UK... "...a key method of measuring temperature change has exaggerated the warming rate by almost 40 per cent."

"Now an international team of scientists, including researchers from the Met Office in Bracknell, Berkshire, has found serious discrepancies in these temperature measurements, suggesting that the amount of global warming is much less than previously believed."

Statements by The Competitive Enterprise Institute (CE:

Extensive Atlantic Ocean temperature data contradicts the claims of global warming theorists. At a Capitol Hill science briefing sponsored by CEI, oceanographer Roger Pocklington of the Bermuda Biological Station for Research dismissed global warming alarmism: "All around the North Atlantic Ocean it warmed to the middle of the [20th] century after which it has cooled. The warmest [years] were in the middle of the century. Supposedly we're living through the warmest decade in history. And in the best sampled part of the world [the Atlantic] we don't see it."

Opinion: There's a very calculated movement in the world today. One bent on depicting the industrialized west (The U.S. specifically) as an unthinking, uncaring gaggle of wasteful and wantonly polluting fascists. This simply isn't true. It's nothing more than liberal media using Stearn-esque "shock-jock" methods to sensationalize the social issues of the moment and increase their own ratings. They are USING your sensibilities and fear to goad you into watching their programming and read their propaganda.

Read for yourself... I'm pleased all of the seated US leaders refrained from signing off on the Protocol. Saved the country a butt-load of money and time.

goddessofbitches 41M/33F

9/12/2005 9:48 am

well....the only comment I have about this whole thing....

What's the difference? The disaster is done. The deaths have already taken place. In the last 15 yrs we have had one disaster after another...hurricanes, bombings, earthquakes, terrorist attacks... and who did we blame for those? Who stepped up and saved lives when these disasters hit?
The president has people in charge of certain departments who are supposed to get the ball rolling. They didn't, and that is the presidents fault? I'm not saying he isn't partly to blame, but he isn't the ONLY person at fault..... and quite frankly, they need to quit trying to point the finger on whose damn fault it is and just clean up. Simple. They act like some damn 7 yr olds who didn't tell mom that the vase was broke and now they are fighting over who REALLY broke it.
Just shut mouths, get to work, and get it over with.


Always The Bitch

ByteChaser2 52M

9/12/2005 11:21 am

Thanks Mandy. That's a perspective that most of us kind of put aside in our quests to "hang the perpetrator".

rm_MarkNGeorgia 64M
91 posts
9/12/2005 11:23 am

While we are on the subject of Alarmist vs. Realist, how about the media coverage of the whole disaster. Emphasis on 10,000 dead, 25,000 body bags, toxic sludge. Now it turns out that Mississippi has had more fatalities that Louisiana (From CNN: Louisiana officials on Sunday raised the death toll in their state to 197 ... overall total of dead at 426), and that almost all the houses in New Orleans searched so far contain no bodies.

The droning about "toxic sludge" is overblown as well. There was a story on AOL (that has since been revised) that mentioned testing of the floodwaters so far has revealed little hazardous waste other than fecal contamination from raw sewerage. None of the industrial waste or hazardous chemicals that have been trumpeted so prominately have been detected.

(Does the fact that I can no longer find the source for this fact mean this is now opinion? In any event, all the talk of the toxicity of the sludge is speculation and opinion until testing is actually done. The news services cause unnecessary fear and anxiety by parading the opinions and speculations of a few so-called experts as news, unsupported by facts. But of course, that is what they want because it increases ratings.)

I saw other posts about how Bush caused global warming. Even if he signed the Kyoto treaty, the amount of CO2 wound be the same. If Kerry was president, who would be responsible then? I also saw the intensity of this particular hurricane blamed on warmer oceans and the flooding blamed on the meltimg glaciers. This is ridiculous on the face of it. This was not the most intense hurricane on record, not even the most intense storm to ever hit the Gulf Coast (that distinction belongs to Camille). Camille happened almost 40 years ago. This same disaster could have struck New Orleans then if the storm had passed a little further to the west. The difference in the destruction then and now is the population increase and build-up on the gulf coast, and the shoddy building materials and construction techniques used now.

Mayor Nagin and Govenor Blanco seem to be getting a free ride in the blame game. Is it because they are both Democrats? Under US law quoted above, emergency situations are controlled from the LOCAL level up. The Mayor asks the Governor for help. The Governor asks the Feds. The Cheese Stands Alone.

The GOVERNOR controls the National Guard. Where were they in the early hours after the disaster? Were they put on alert in the hours before the storm? Did the governor stage any disaster relief supplies? Why wasn't the Red Cross allowed in to distribute water and supplies? Blanco looks to me like she is incompetent, was totally unprepared for any disaster, and then couldn't make decisions on what to do.

Mayor Nagin could have used all the NO transit and school busses to get everyone out. Why didn't he? Because no one really expected the worse and he would have looked like a fool if the levee had held. Suppose he had ordered an evacuation. What kind of chaos and panic would have occurred? Would anyone actually go? Where would the busses have gone? What if there were accidents? Would the city be liable for damages? Would the city be faced with hundreds of lawsuits for ordering an unnecessary evacuation?

All this blame game to further a political agenda on the backs of the misery and suffering is truly inexcusible and deplorable. I was in Louisiana during Camille, and I don't remember anything like this at all. The focus was on the devestation and helping get everyone back on their feet. And if I'm not mistaken, there was a Republican President then as well.

ByteChaser2 52M

9/12/2005 11:24 am

And since the omnipotent blog police either:

1) don't want web links in a blog - What? we can't support our claims with published data?

2) Refuse to allow any facts refuting that global warming misinformation tactic.

or 3) Just couldn't care less...

I'll just shut the fuck up.

papyrina 51F
21133 posts
9/16/2005 5:58 am

it was in jest honest

I'm a

i'm here to stay

ByteChaser2 52M

9/16/2005 8:37 am

lol - I Knew that papy! But you know how politics and religion can really fire up a crowd. Especially one as passionate as ours in Blogville

papyrina 51F
21133 posts
9/18/2005 3:33 pm

hehe i know

I'm a

i'm here to stay

ByteChaser2 52M

9/19/2005 9:32 am

Well... I suppose there's no real response to this thread so I'll just allow it to die a natural death - as it were...

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