Blogs > classyginger > Ginger Says... > What good is prayer? (Part I)

What good is prayer? (Part I)  


6/30/2009 11:03 pm
 Today a new reader to my blog mentioned that old adage that I've heard so many times before. You know, that there are no atheists in foxholes. He touched on a great subject - Prayer! As the poker player would say - I'm all in!

Gonna point out a few things about what is said in the Bible that is a complete contradiction with reality. Think about it... Prayer! The belief in prayer is nothing more than superstition. I can prove it too. In fact there is nothing more challenging for the Christian than the belief in prayer. All you've got to do to see how perplexing a subject this is for the Christian is to look at a few of the Christian web sites. And you'll find that the question of prayer troubles Christians greatly. For example, one site says of the question of prayer that "few experiences pose a greater challenge to our faith." Another site called unanswered prayer - "one of the biggest questions which those in ministry have to deal with in counseling other Christians."

Clearly Christians and their ministries recognize a problem here. The Bible says over and over that if you believe and pray, your prayer will be granted. So does what really happens on earth comport with what the Bible says? I don't think so. Let's take a look... In the New Testament it has Jesus saying quite a bit about the subject of prayer. Across the four Gospels there are literally dozens of references to Jesus and prayer. References to his praying and being on his way to pray or just having return from praying. Often rather lengthy references to him giving instructions about how to pray and what to pray. As well as admonitions about how to pray and what not to pray and so on. The gospel writers have Jesus making some extraordinarily broad statements about what to expect from prayer.

For example there's Matthew 21:22 - "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." That was said right after Jesus made a fig tree wither and the disciples were like hey, how'd you do that? John 16:23 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Farther for anything in my name, he will give it to you." There's no getting around it, it's absolute. Mark 11:24 - "There I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you." Then there's Matthew 7: 7-8 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you... For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

These are extraordinary and to the point unqualified statements about what to expect from prayer. The 18th chapter of Luke's gospel even has Jesus telling his disciples a parable about how persistent they should be in prayer. Jesus uses the example of a woman who pleads with the judge who doesn't listen to her initially. Jesus pretty much says that people should nag God. Because if they do God will eventually give them what they request.

Again and again, Jesus uses broad unqualified language with respect to prayer. "Ask the farther for anything... he will give it to you." "All things you ask in prayer... you will receive." Everyone who asks receives." "All things for which you pray... they will be granted you." The guarantee is outright! If one asks, one receives. The fact that Jesus' prayer related guarantees are outright and unqualified aggravates the problem of unanswered prayer. As one Christian ministries web site put it "the problem wouldn't be so vexing if the biblical promises about prayer weren't so numerous and explicit."

In fact the only place in the gospel where Jesus talks about Gods will as a limitation on prayer is when he prays for himself prior to his arrest. The story is a familiar one, and told in each of the synoptic gospels. Marks gospel has it this way - And Jesus said, "Abba, Farther, all things are possible for you. Take this cup from me. Nevertheless, not what I will, but what you will." A little later in the story though Jesus makes a fascinating statement that's quite in keeping with his if one asks one receives approach to prayer. As he's being arrested one of Jesus' disciples draws a sword and injures a member of the arresting party and Jesus scolds him for doing that and he says "don't you know that I could ask my Father, and right away he would send me more than twelve armies of angels" - Matthew 26:53
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RocketMan_Len
2375 posts

7/1/2009 6:04 am

 I agree. It gives one the impression that G-d is a parent with a whiny child... and that he'll give the kid a toy -

JUST

TO

SHUT

HIM

UP!!!


classyginger replies on 7/1/2009 1:51 pm:
LOL! Hey, maybe God isn’t answering prayers because hes sick of the nagging. Yeah, that must be it...
crump3232
8964 posts 

7/1/2009 7:30 am

 And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." Jesus even said that he couldn't heal you if you did not believe.

Go in any book store and you can find volumes of secular works on the powers of the mind and how you can achieve great things if you form a mental image of what you want and stay fixed to that image and it will come to you, "if you can conceive it, you can achieve it."

Jesus was The Man, he punched a hole in the cultural egg that enslaves all of humanity and showed people a way out but freaking Paul came alone and put a patch of rules and regulations right over that hole.

If Paul had written I Corinthians 13 and then shut the hell up, things would be much different today but hell no he had to go into who is worthy and who is not and how to conduct yourself and on and on and on and the church became an instrument of culture.

I have much to say on my MAN Jesus and several of your post about religion, which I disdain also. However, it going to be 98 today and I need to put some paint on a house before it gets too hot and pray as I might, God ain't going to put the paint on the house for me.


classyginger replies on 7/1/2009 1:48 pm:
Yes, Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was indeed quite a character. It all came to him in the desert when God spoke to him from a bright light. Yeah right! I mentioned this before but have you ever wondered why God always spoke to these people and gave them instructions on what to write in some secluded desert or mountain side somewhere? I think it’s quite curious that God spoke to thousands with a booming voice from heavens. Stopped the Sun in the sky, parted the Red Sea, turn rivers into blood and turned a woman into a pillar of salt, etc, etc.

But when man advanced enough in the area of science and communication and could actually document, share, play back and verify these acts and miracles. God stopped performing them all together. Yes very curious indeed.

This might come as a shock you but I'm not sure that Jesus ever existed. Why? Because his story is a complete plagiarism of the story of the ancient Egyptian Sun God Horus. I’ve touched on this subject before when I first blogged about religion. But I’ll repeat it:

Horus was written about extensively in ancient Hieroglyphics, over a thousand years before the birth of Jesus. Research it and you’ll come to the realization that the Bible, especially the story of Jesus was plagiarized.

The similarity between the Egyptian God Horus and Jesus is unbelievably identical. Horus was born of a virgin named “Meri” (Mary) and was the only begotten son of the Egyptian God Osirus. His birth was herald by the star Sirius. Jesus, a star in the east.

They were both born in December; Horus on the 21st , and Jesus, supposedly on December 25th. Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by Sheppard’s. Herut tried to have Horus murdered in his infancy, and Herod attempted to kill Jesus. Both were child teachers and disappeared at age twelve. Not to be heard from again until age 30.

Both Horus and Jesus were baptized at 30. Both of their baptizers were subsequently beheaded. Both just so happened to have 12 disciples’ Horus walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick and restored sight to the blind. Sound familiar?

Horus raised Osirus from the dead. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Both Horus and Jesus were crucified alongside two thieves then buried in tombs. Both were resurrected after three days. Horus however predates Jesus by over a thousand years. Now you tell me - Coincidence or plagiarism?
honestjohn4u
3174 posts 

7/1/2009 9:28 pm

 I thought you said you read the bible? How did you miss all the hidden caveats? Matthew 21:22 All you have to do is back up one verse and there it is, "If ye have faith, and doubt not", there's the qualifying statement you were looking for. Doubt is such an insidious thing for it undermines the faith of good men.
Matthew 7: 7-8 is a big long speech but if you just back up a couple of verses you will find, "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you", you can't just pray and expect, you have to seek God, his kingdom and righteousness first.
Mark 11:24 This one you don't even have to back-up for, it has its caveat self contained. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Once again you must believe, and here is the reason you pray and don't receive, James 1: 6-7 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
John 16:23 don't stop there the part you are missing is in the 26th verse which reads, "26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you". The day he is speaking of is the day he returns, the day of our Lord.
As he's being arrested one of Jesus' disciples draws a sword and injures a member of the arresting party and Jesus scolds him for doing that and he says "don't you know that I could ask my Father, and right away he would send me more than twelve armies of angels" - Matthew 26:53
Are you trying to say that Jesus gave himself willingly for us? or am I missing the point?
I could just suck up and say, right on baby, but I feel you would loose all respect for me cause deep down I don't think you really like suck ups. I'm going to get around to showing you how you can prove to yourself that God is real, hey what are pals for?
I Swami Johnny see's all, knows all, tells very little.


classyginger replies on 7/2/2009 3:08 pm:
I don’t understand this comment John. Clearly I’ve said over and over that the criteria for having your prayers answered is that you must believe. No getting around it – that is the requirement! So its special pleadings for you to suggest that I’m denying that one must believe. What of the millions of believers that get down on hands and knees and pray every day and aren’t getting their prayers answered? Are you suggesting that it is their fault because they don’t believe enough? That’s ridiculous! You’re doing what Christians often do John - You’re making excuses for the failure of the bible and Christianity to fulfill an absolute promise that they’ve made. There’s no getting around it John. The New Testament is undeniable when it comes to prayer. Jesus guarantees it!!!

And yes I’m absolutely saying that the bible claims that Jesus gave himself willingly. And no I don’t want sucking up.
honestjohn4u
3174 posts 

7/1/2009 9:42 pm

 Jesus pretty much says that people should nag God. Because if they do God will eventually give them what they request.
I can't let this one go for it is a false doctrine, nagging God is absolutely the wrong way to pray. How could the God that invented ears not hear you the first time. God exists at all points in time and knows your thoughts before you think them. To even pray the same prayer twice is like saying I don't think you heard me, and that is insulting.
The correct way to pray is to bring your petition before God once and all succeeding prayers should preemptively thank him for what you know in faith will come to pass. You heard me correctly, you thank him before it comes to pass, now that is acting in faith.
The real problem with prayer is summed up in this little saying, "be careful what you pray for, you might actually get it".
I Swami Johnny see's all, knows all, tells very little.


classyginger replies on 7/2/2009 3:32 pm:
When I say nagging god, I'm saying that Jesus claimed that you need to be consistent in prayer and your prayers WILL be answered! Read your Luke friend, read your Luke. I know that this is not a comforting thing for the Christian to hear but my point is only that whether you do "know in faith" or not it doesn't make a lick of difference. In fact, prayer has just as much of a chance of being answered as does a wish on a rabbits foot.
FullOn4U
11690 posts

7/3/2009 1:44 am

 There's a real problem with the efficacy of prayer when you consider the omnipotence and omniscience of god. Apparently he knows everything before you even think it, he knows what you will do and why you will do it. Therefore he already knows if he's going to answer your prayer, he already knows what's in store for you.

Does he change his mind when you pray?

Well he can't really, because that would imply that he didn't know what he was going to do, he didn't know that you would ask, he didn't know if he'd accept your plea or not... and he didn't know what your future might be. Which is not very omniscient.

Then again, he has plans for you, he makes you suffer to see how you react, whether your faith is firm (seems a bit sadistic as he already knows your thoughts, but there you go...). Above all he works in mysterious ways, and we cannot understand his plans for the world or for individuals.

Though if he knows your thoughts before you do then what's the point in prayer at all? Why do you have to ask? Why doesn't he just arrange things for believers without them asking - give them a pleasant surprise

It seems to me that god is more like the godfather - he knows you want a favour, he knows he'll do it for you, but first he's going to make you abase yourself in front of him, grovel and ask. He doesn't need you to do that, he could just sort things for you, but he wants to be put in your place and never let you forget that place.

Not very nice behaviour for a human... atrocious behaviour for a deity! Especially one that claims to have our best interests at heart...


classyginger replies on 7/3/2009 2:38 am:
That was beautifully said and very eloquent Full.
honestjohn4u
3174 posts 

7/3/2009 12:35 pm

 I concentrated of the believing part of receiving in faith simply because it was contained within the scriptures that you were quoting not because it is the only factor involved in receiving from the hand of God. Christians pray and fail to receive for a variety of reasons none of which are a deficiency on God's part for there is no failure in God. In John 15 it states If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, (G)ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. If you look at that verse in an isolated manner you would think receiving from God is a piece of cake, but the next five verses outline how abiding how abiding in Jesus involves loving one another. All to often in life we have unresolved issues towards another person that has wronged us and it is these unresolved issues that interfere with our being blessed. Failure to follow the love commandment is a real buzz kill when it comes to receiving from God, moreover the type of love I am talking about the human spirit is incapable of, it only can come from God in the first place. Romans 5:2&5 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Before you go praying for material things you must pray for love to come into your heart, for if there is any you have resentment against, including Rush Limpweenie, then this would interfere with your receiving. This is further confirmed in Matthew 5:23 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
Another factor that interferes with our prayer life is a failure to keep the word in other parts of our life, how can we expect to receive from God one hour and violate his commandments the next. This is immediately juxtapositioned in Galatians 5:19-21 and 5:22-26
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
That would be how not to receive from God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
And this is how you do receive from God.
This final scripture just acts as a synopsis to everything else I have written.
1 John 3:22-24 22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The bottom line is that prayer is not as easy as bending a knee and asking for what grooves you, your prayer must be in line with Gods will, which is why all my prayers seek only a confirmation of promises already made by God's word. Take for example wealth, God did say that he takes great pleasure in the prosperity of his children. Now look at how Jesus handled this in his ministry. We have all heard the Lords prayer, well when it gets to the part of give us this day our daily bread, what he is saying is that our blessings are rationed for that day, you can't just prayer for a million dollars and expect to hit the lottery the next day. We are not blessed instantly but we are blessed constantly by praying for our daily bread, not ten years worth all at once.
I Swami Johnny see's all, knows all, tells very little.


classyginger replies on 7/12/2009 7:27 pm:
Great, we'll finish this in e-mail.
lustmirror
2828 posts 

7/3/2009 10:07 pm

 Every soul(s)
have Faith
so
if ya got ?
ya know ...
fate
and no Faith?
then well
ya got no soul
which
makes US...
(the borg,
the blues,
the imperfect
...the others...
that's the point, right?)

of which soul consists
quite
and quiet...

Faith is not
a profession
anymore...
and yet?

stilllllll popular.....


classyginger replies on 7/12/2009 7:28 pm:
The only faith that I have is faith in myself...

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